ksg Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 (edited) I know many collectors regards these crosses as spoilt goods. Personally I regard them as an equal part of the history as the unspoilt ones. There are a double personal history behind them, first being awarded for a merit and then denazified by the owner for a purpose. Wear, display or.....? Remember this was done before 1957.They are often no beauty's, like my 2. class where the owner have been quit rough, but I have seen it worse.The 1. class (128 mm) looks nicer. The swastika have been removed professionally and repainted. Another issue about the nicer pieces are; that they could actually have been awarded as denazified. Awards took place well after the war ended. For those who have the Deutches Ordensmuseums volum 3,"Das Eiserne Kreuz 1813-1945 ", have a look at page 210. It showes an award document for an Iron Cross 1. class, awarded 30 Juli 1945, in Tromso and signed by Jodl. It was given for exceptionally bravery during mine clearing. Kjell Edited March 11, 2007 by ksg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKeating Posted March 11, 2007 Share Posted March 11, 2007 Posting it here will not contravene any copyright laws. It would come under 'Fair Use' provisions in the legislation, particularly as this is a non-profit website for information-sharing and educational purposes. Just credit the source. You already have credited the source! So let's see the document.I agree that denazified awards are just as valid as 'intact' pieces. I have a few denazified paybooks and documents, which underlines the fact that the veteran used them after the war for various administrative purposes. Those ink spots over the swastikas are part of history, just as the removed swastikas on your Iron Crosses are part of history, indicating that the holders wore them after the war. PK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksg Posted March 11, 2007 Author Share Posted March 11, 2007 Posting it here will not contravene any copyright laws. It would come under 'Fair Use' provisions in the legislation, particularly as this is a non-profit website for information-sharing and educational purposes. Just credit the source. You already have credited the source! So let's see the document.I agree that denazified awards are just as valid as 'intact' pieces. I have a few denazified paybooks and documents, which underlines the fact that the veteran used them after the war for various administrative purposes. Those ink spots over the swastikas are part of history, just as the removed swastikas on your Iron Crosses are part of history, indicating that the holders wore them after the war. PKPKThanks for your opinion on the subject, and for clearing up the copyright issue.Any chance you could post some scans of the papers?Kjell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksg Posted March 11, 2007 Author Share Posted March 11, 2007 Here is the document. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKeating Posted March 11, 2007 Share Posted March 11, 2007 (edited) Quite a document! Here's an example of the kind of denazified soldbuch I was referring to. This is the awards page. This remains more or less on-topic as Scheu got the EK2 and EK1 and this is about denazified awards and documents. However, his urkunden are not denazified. PK Edited March 11, 2007 by PKeating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKeating Posted March 11, 2007 Share Posted March 11, 2007 Interestingly, although the swastikas have been covered, the sigrunen remain visible. This officer only denazified his paybook. None of his other documents were denazified. PK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKeating Posted March 11, 2007 Share Posted March 11, 2007 (edited) This Personalkarte was issued in July 1945. Heinrich Karrasch didn't get any Iron Crosses - although he received the KVK2 m. Schw. - but for the sake of discussion of the topic of denazification, I trust you will tolerate this intrusion into the Iron Cross section in order to illustrate some of the strange things one sees in late or immediately postwar documents. Edited March 11, 2007 by PKeating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKeating Posted March 11, 2007 Share Posted March 11, 2007 (edited) Here is the other side of the document. You can see that the issuing office, in Germany, was still using its unit stamp complete with the swastika. However, the officer completing the document for Heinrich Karrasch carefully omitted the "SS" designation in front of the two Waffen-SS units cited on the lefthand page and, perhaps at Karrasch's insistence, added a note making it clear that Karrasch had served with the SS-Fallschirmj?ger-Bataillon. Karrasch began the war as a Luftwaffe mechanic with Lehrgeschwader 1, being transferred late in 1944 to a Heer marsch-kompanie in Bielefeld, where he was recruited by the Kompaniechef of Stab/SS-Fallschirmj?ger-Btl 600 and his team, who were scouring the Heer and Luftwaffe barracks across northern Germany for recruits to bring the new FJ battalion up to full strength. As you can see, the Heer 'reclaimed' Karrasch. SS-Panzergrenadier Ersatz und Ausbildungs Btl 35 was the nominal depot unit of the SS-Fallschirmj?ger and SS-Jagdverb?nde units. Some sub-units of SS-Panzer-Grenadier-Rgt 7 were placed in Kampfgruppe Solar, formed by Otto Skorzeny for the defence of the Zehden bridgehead and commanded by Siegfried Milius, who was normally commander of SS-Fallschirmj?ger-Btl 600. After the breakout from Zehden, Karrasch evidently found himself with the remains of this unit, and some officer was kind enough to annotate his paybook, otherwise the military police might have arrested him as a deserter. Interesting that although they went to the trouble of comouflaging his half-year with the Waffen-SS, the document still indicates his service with the SS-FJ-Btl. One wonders if this was due to pride in having served with the Fallschirmj?ger. The annotation "B. -Schein" is interesting. Nobody has yet come up with any explanation for it. Could it mean "Bew?hrungs-Schein"? The original SS-FJ-Btl had been formed with a percentage of Bew?hrungs-Sch?tzen (Disciplinary Soldiers) but the survivors were all "rehabilitated" by the time the remnants of SS-FJ-Btl 500 were transferred to northern Germany as cadre for the new parachute battalion. It is known that the 180-odd survivors who managed to surrender to US forces with the Soviets snapping at their heels escaped being turned over to certain death at the hands of the Reds by playing hard on the reputation of the unit as a probationary or rehabilitation unit for "politicals", in other words, anti-Nazis. Was this document filled out thus to help Karrash to get home without too many problems? Sadly, he died quite a few years ago and none of his family are really willing to discuss that period. Anyway, just another example of the confusion that reigned at the time...PK Edited March 11, 2007 by PKeating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naoki matsumoto Posted April 3, 2007 Share Posted April 3, 2007 What !? Why ? What damage is this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev in Deva Posted April 3, 2007 Share Posted April 3, 2007 What !? Why ? What damage is this?Hallo naoki matsumoto When Germany was defeated in WW2 it was forbiden to display the swatika and SS insignia on anything, including medals and decorations, German veterans removed the swastikas from their awards and badges to conform with the new regulations.In 1957 the German government allowed the issue of replacement medals and insignia, which were authorised in a new version without any nazi insignia, (only military awards) polltical and SS awards / insignia still being banned.Many veterans kept their de-nazified awards though.Kevin in Deva. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Stahlhut Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 a nicely vaulted, one-piece brass screwback Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Stahlhut Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe campbell Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 eric-i'd be PLEASED to have that EK in my collection.what a great piece.joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Stahlhut Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 thank you, sir!i do believe that this one may have come from one of the twins... :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKeating Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 What a wonderful thing! I haven't studied the beading details to see who might have made this but unless it has been manually bent for the vaulted look, there were relatively few firms offering vaulted 1939 EK1, pinback or screwback. It seems that the swastika has been removed and the core repainted. Is that the case? Or it this a cross actually made as-is?PK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe campbell Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 wide flange reminds me of K&Q.style would suggest private purchase, earlyproduction, and probably officer material.joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Stahlhut Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 hiya prosper, someone filed down the swastika and repainted the core. as the vault is extremely uniform (medium) it could very well be original to the cross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe campbell Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 WHAT is that apparatus in the last picture????joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Stahlhut Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 mini tripod for camera! i'm losing light fast here, so i didn't have time to scrabble around for a suitable prop.anyways, here's a final shotcheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKeating Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Hallo Eric!IMO, that cross left the makers as a vaulted piece. It's as clear as the noses on the ends of our faces. Nice!P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Stahlhut Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 (edited) now that i have your attention guys, i have a quick question:in what capacity could the below denazified badge have been worn? Edited October 6, 2008 by Eric Stahlhut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Stahlhut Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 facility guard, perhaps? or did the vet orgs keep chugging way despite all of the notoriety? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev in Deva Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 or a Fantasy piece Kevin in Deva :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulsterman Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 The Kyfserbund is still around. they held meetings annually in the later 1940s-present. my guess is that this is from one of them in the late 1940s-early 1950s. Why would anyone 'create" something so common and inexpensive? Most fakers are trying to generate as much cash as they can and this badge has been made "cheaper" by removing the offensive icon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex K Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 (edited) Hallo Eric!IMO, that cross left the makers as a vaulted piece. It's as clear as the noses on the ends of our faces. Nice!PThere were early vaulted TR Pieces. Attached is one of mine, maker L/II which shows oroginal vaulting, as can be seen from the case in which it sits.regards Edited October 6, 2008 by Alex K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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