Rolls

[David M]

Hi David,

I have not the original rolls from Anhalt, Baden, Braunschweig, Oldenburg. Only Staatshandb?cher, for example Anhalt since 1872.

I have all classes from the prussian red eagle and the crown order with "addons" - that means swords, 50, etc. but not with "Schleife" or "Eichenlaub". There are twenty thousand of each order in all classes.

At last I have made a list of the bavarian MVK at the "Badn f?r Kriegsverdienste" - all classes - and the MVK 1. class for war-merit. Here I have only the Milit?rverordnungsblatt and not the original rolls.

But I think there are 75 - 90 %.

Best regards

Werner

Hi Werner

I can only imagine what a vast files you must have on your computer. Did you ever consider publishing? As far as the Anhalt Bear Order is concerned, I do hope that there will be a volunteer who will take the responsibility form the pre 1872 awards. Would they also be in the Staatshandb?cher? As I understand correctly, the Bear Order was established 1834 as a follow-up of a previous bear order. It would be really great to have all the data in one publication! Would anyone know when this bear order originally started?

forgive me for getting all exited about this, I just love pre 1871 orders and would most certainly volunteer myself for doing the rest of the bear order (pre 1872) if a publications should not be hasted..... I would really love to see how my first project (HGL) turns out before I make any commitments to other pre 1871 orders

David

Edited March 26, 2007 by David M

[WNickel]

Hello Chris,

here are my numbers. It's difficult with the awards without swords because I don't know who had change into a decoration with swords.

all decoration am Beamtenband (Band f?r kriegsverdienste)

MVK 1 365

MVK 1 x 1191

MVK 1 mKr 24

MVK 1 mKr+x 64

MVK 2 173

MVK 2 x 1652

MVK 2 mKr 468

MVK 2 mKr+x 1883

MVK 3 24

MVK 3 x 907

MVK 3 mKr 71

MVK 3 mKr+x 149

Best regards

Werner

[WNickel]

Hi Werner

I can only imagine what a vast files you must have on your computer. Did you ever consider publishing? As far as the Anhalt Bear Order is concerned, I do hope that there will be a volunteer who will take the responsibility form the pre 1872 awards. Would they also be in the Staatshandb?cher? As I understand correctly, the Bear Order was established 1834 as a follow-up of a previous bear order. It would be really great to have all the data in one publication! Would anyone know when this bear order originally started?

forgive me for getting all exited about this, I just love pre 1871 orders and would most certainly volunteer myself for doing the rest of the bear order (pre 1872) if a publications should not be hasted..... I would really love to see how my first project (HGL) turns out before I make any commitments to other pre 1871 orders

David

Hi David,

I'm consider publishing and I have had good contacts to Hrn. Roth. But there are a few bad collector who copy his books because they are not willing pay the really small price. I need the lists to identify the wearers of bars - my own one and the bars of other collectors.

In the Staatshandbuch 1872 were also former awards but it can be that some of them are missing.

Look at my numbers of bavarian awards of the MVK - Bernd D will find some more in the original rolls.

About Anhalt pre 1871 orders let us make a new thread....

Werner

[webr55]

Thanks for the numbers!

Chris

[David M]

Would anyone know about the Hannover rolls for their awards?Are they still out there or do we rely on the STB?

David

[Wild Card]

Would anyone know about the Hannover rolls for their awards?Are they still out there or do we rely on the STB?

David

Hi David M,

I am sure that some records exist because have seen a few copies of pages of Hannoverian Waterloo Medal recipients. How much there is, I cannot say. I believe that these records are kept at the archives in Pattensen.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Guest Rick Research]

Today I have received the mini- roll (36) for Schaumburg-Lippe Crosses for Loyal Service in War PINBACK awards for the World War to Royals. This suggests that there IS a roll for the "normal" ribboned crosses.

Also now have all awards of the Brunswick House Order in all gardes to members of Infantry Regiment 92 1870-1895 (with notes on other 1870/71 awards and where and when wounded in that war) and

not actually a "roll" as such, but Eric Ludvigsen's work on multiple bars to the 1870/71 War Medal, which shows specific units sometimes down to a single COMPANY entitled to odd multiple combinations. I will have to retype that into some form of searchable/alphabetical list since it is far too complicated (about 60 or more pages, at a guess). Putting that aside for the time being.

I've "only" got the Lippe-Detmold Gold and Silver Merit Medals to do for that state to be finished. I just completed the Silver Civil Merit/aka Pauline-Medal roll 1817-1918. VERY weird award, that: for 66 years in the city sand and gravel pit, for lifesaving, for Frenchmen assisting a stray Detmolder in the San Salvador riots of 1864.....

[Guest Rick Research]

ROLLS UPDATE!!!!!!!

Today I have received the COMPLETE wartime rolls for Baden's Z?hringen Lion. These were sent by Erhard Roth to Neal O'Connor in 1996. For no known reason, the Roth published roll simply STOPS with all entries about 6 June 1918. The rolls, however, do indeed continue right up to November 1918 (and there are some strange returns and replacements noted into the 1930s) BUT this is what the entire Roll looks like:

and this is a GOOD page! And bear in mind that what you are now looking at on your monitors is LARGER than the original. When even visible, for instance, a microscopic award date tipped into those insanely small columns is covered by the eraser end of a pencil.

So there may be a number of entries which cannot be recovered. But there are many HUNDREDS that can be added.

Also received today in a 24 hour interlude in this gawdawful global warming we've been having:

Schaumburg-Lippe Order for Arts and Sciences in all classes: complete. I will do those together with the 1890-1918 Honor Cross list. This too is last name, position, day/month/year and NOTHING else.

Also:

Prussian Luisen Order and Cross for Ladies and Young Ladies which are already accounted for above.

Prussian Hohenzollern House Order 3rd Class awards 1866-1905 to Prussians.

Prussian Hohenzollern Eagles (Knight) 1853-1894

Mecklenburg-Schwerin Wend Crown all gardes 1865-1902

and

Waldeck

miserable, horrible Waldeck: what APPEARS to be

Merit Crosses:

1st Class 1896-1914

2nd Class 1896-1918

Officer Cross 1912-1918

3rd Class 1914-1918

4th Class ??? still can't figure out

Honor Cross 1899-1918

Gold Merit Medal 1914-1918

These are SO poorly organized that it is very often impossible to tell what year is on any page.

In with the several boxes delivered by a willing accomplice and semi-slave labor was some correspondence showing where and when all this was originally created.

Erhard Roth told Neal O'Connor that he was working on the Schwarzburg rolls in 1996. All that has been lost. An unnamed German collector was supposedly doing the Reuss rolls-- and again, that is a project which seems to have gone nowhere in these 11 years.

Neal also reported to George that he had received MICROFICHE from the Schaumburg-Lippe archives of all WW1Cross for Louyal Service in War awards (that is what I have the pinback pages of, mentioned previously) which

at enormous expense

printed out to

2,330 pages

"... many pages are totally illegible with horrendous scrawls and lousy reproduction. It looks like a nearly impossible task to amke much sense of the stuff."

Whatever happened to those 2,330 pages is not known, but I mention this should anyone be tempted to ask for that Roll again, sight unseen.

So, when I finish Lippe-Detmold in a couple of days, I think my next priority will be to attempt to complete the Baden Z?hringen Lion wartime roll-- whatever is humanly possible. THEN I will transcribe the Schaumburg-Lippe Honor Cross and Order for Arts and Sciences rolls for a Schaumburg companion volume to Lippe-Detmold.

On a related research note, I found the complete personnel records, copied by the Baden Archives in the 1970s and 1980s, for George's WW1 Feldart Rgt 14 Major aD! MKFVO medal bar recipient, Albert Ferdinand Mathias Felix Reinhard Freiherr R?der von Diersburg (1876-1954). If anyone knows who ended up buying that magnificent medal bar, and the current owner even cares, they can contact me.

Special thanks for the unexpected Special Home Delivery since the mountain passes are due to be snowed in yet again tomorrow.

[David M]

Hi Rick

that is really a great addition!!! Any idea when the Lippe-D's will be available in print?

David

[webr55]

Congratulations Rick! It's really great to see so many projects advancing!

David: The Hauptstaatsarchiv Hannover seems to keep a number of Hanover's rolls, at least for the Guelphen Order.

[eitze]

Waldeck

miserable, horrible Waldeck: what APPEARS to be

Merit Crosses:

1st Class 1896-1914

2nd Class 1896-1918

Officer Cross 1912-1918

3rd Class 1914-1918

4th Class ??? still can't figure out

Honor Cross 1899-1918

Gold Merit Medal 1914-1918

These are SO poorly organized that it is very often impossible to tell what year is on any page.

Oh my god - why was the Waldeck Roll Beamter such a pimp

I want my Waldeck Rolls

greetings

eitze

[Guest Rick Research]

Believe me, they would make you crazy.

STILL searching around in the new batch of stuff, I have just found the roll for all grades of the 1914-18 Baden Milit?r Karl Friedrich Verdienst Order. That has been published, but at least here are the original roll images.

And among Baron Roeder's personnel records from the Archive, there are pages from a roll of the MKFVO showing CITATION TEXT for those. Unfortunately the officers before and after him only show the last half and first half of their citations BUT this means that if anyone wants to get the actual citation texts for all the WW1 recipients, those do indeed exist. Or did iaround 1980.

[Ed_Haynes]

Not to weep over spilt research, but it is a BLOODY CAPITAL CRIMINAL SHAME that the research has been severed from the medals. Why do some seem to care not at all for the history, not for the knowledge, just for the THINGS and the MONEY.

Lock and . . .

[Guest Rick Research]

All that has been undone can rarely if ever be undone.

But in this happily singular case, at least THREE of us can sleep soundly, Ed.

The purchaser of Baron Roeder's medal bar has been in touch and I will be sending him the personnel records. The copies are antiques themselves as far as xeroxes go.

There is not much that goes on in our world, collecting-wise, that passeth out of mortal ken HERE.

[Guest Rick Research]

ADDITIONAL ROLL ALERT !!!

I have also got the COMPLETE roll of the Principality of Hohenzollern Silver Merit Cross without swords

from September 1910 to November 1945 ( )

That will NOT be added to the WW1 "with Xs" awards lists.

I have NO other classes of civil/peacetime/postwar awards so this is kind of an orphan.

But again: if you can find one, BUY IT.

[Red Eagle]

The roll for the "verdienstkreuz f?r Frauen und Jungfrauen" is now online.

You found it at http://www.ordensmuseum.de/Ordensjournal/O...erlLiJungfr.pdf

Eagle

[Guest Rick Research]

EXTRA ADDITIONAL ROLLS ALERT !!!

Solomon has sent me

1) Lippe Detmold's Milit?r Verdienst Medaille roll, 1832-1915. This is the type that did NOT have little crossed Xs on the front of the medal. THAT is now transcribed and have sent it to Glenn to see if any of the 1830s-70s officers can have missing data filled in.

2) Lippe Detmold 1905 Succession Medal roll. I will work on that this weekend and get the recipients cross indexed to other Detmold awards.

EXCELLENT additions that are EXTREMELY useful for groups identifiation!

[Solomon]

I can add something not mentioned. I didn?t type it yet, but if there are questions, it?s no problem:

Rolls for Schaumburg-Lippe Order for art and science 1st and 2nd class

Something very special and the lists are not as nice as the Detmold-rolls are....Rick knows what I mean.

Greetings

Solomon

[David M]

I can add something not mentioned. I didn?t type it yet, but if there are questions, it?s no problem:

Rolls for Schaumburg-Lippe Order for art and science 1st and 2nd class

Something very special and the lists are not as nice as the Detmold-rolls are....Rick knows what I mean.

Greetings

Solomon

Hi Solomon

is the SL art & science the one depicted as your avatar? If not, I would love to see an image!!

David

[Solomon]

Hi Solomon

is the SL art & science the one depicted as your avatar? If not, I would love to see an image!!

David

My avatar is the Lippe-Detmold Lippische Rose 2nd class with oakleaves for art and science

The order from Schaumburg-Lippe 2nd class I showed here:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6602

And my avatar I showed here:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=5497

Greetings

Solomon

[Guest Rick Research]

Solomon: I have the Schaumburg Lippe Arts and Sciences Rolls too (post 36) and was planning to type them up with the Schaumburg-Lippe Ehrenkreuz rolls 1890 on.

But you have the "standard page format" we are using, so if you want to do those Arts and Sciences, that will split the work. I'll be doing the Schaumburg Ehrenkreuz rolls next:

Daniel wants to keep doing the Never Published Rolls before we go back and re-do Roth's published ones (Baden etc).

It will take me about a month to do the Ehrenkreuz rolls, since I'll be checking for more personal identification from the Orders Almanac, the Detmold rolls, and so on.

God alone knows when these are all going to go to the PRINTER, but in the meantime the work is DONE and being done, so it will not be lost and WILL be available.

[Solomon]

Solomon: I have the Schaumburg Lippe Arts and Sciences Rolls too (post 36) and was planning to type them up with the Schaumburg-Lippe Ehrenkreuz rolls 1890 on.

But you have the "standard page format" we are using, so if you want to do those Arts and Sciences, that will split the work. I'll be doing the Schaumburg Ehrenkreuz rolls next:

...

Ah okay...but i there is something you can?t read...please ask...I?ll try to help you if possible.

Solomon

[David M]

rolls in statehandbook

maybe I mentioned this before but the rolls of the CHGL ( I will translate that for you: churhessian house order of the golden lion) I use, I take from the various volumes of the Statehandbook.

I know of about some other statehandbooks with exact (full date) or at least the year of award of the orders and medals from that country. I would love to start an inventory here.

As far as kurhessen goes, I have the following

1772-1786

1817-1833

1840 (which I found here: link )

For anyone who is not familiar with this kind of source: it is just great!!

Hope members will post the volumes they have here

David M

[Guest Rick Research]

I have begun working on the Schaumburg Lippe rolls for the House Order (Silver Merit Cross up) and Arts & Sciences awards. These are ONLY from 1890 to 1918, and will no doubt take me at least a month if not 2. Or 3, given the horrid microscopic scribbles and freaking job title abbreviations (Debitsexpedient etc). I find my stamina flagging due to the continued delay in getting earlier completed rolls published. This quite saps my morale. (Soooooooooooooo much work done with nothing to show for it!!!!)

Already I am adding data to the "completed" Lippe Detmold rolls from this rival Lippe state. It seems that the same class of both house's Orders/Crosses could be worn together, though they usually seem to have tried to "one up" each other. I will just add notations in this post as I progress.

Arts & Sciences Awards; completed. Any additional names and data have been added.

Silver Merit Cross: completed. Any additional names and dates have been added.

Gold Merit Cross: completed. Any additional names and dates have been added.

Ehrenkreuz 4. Klasse: completed. I'll hold adding data until all the grades are transcribed.

Ehrenkreuz 3. Klasse: completed. As above--though holders of the DETMOLD Honor Crosses noted as I go.

Ehrenkreuz Offizierklasse: completed. As above. Found two types of Officer grade that have never been listed as even existing before.

Ehrenkreuz 2. Klasse: completed. For no apparent reason at all, the "with Oakleaves" are almost never entered in their proper time--often YEARS out of sequence.

Ehrenkreuz 1. Klasse: started. This will finish up what rolls I have for Schaumburg, and when done will begin back filling any possible additional data.

FINAL NOTE: ALL in my possession completed and sent off to Daniel today, August 26. 3 1/2 months to slog through Schaumburg 1869-1918 but now I am DONE.

Edited August 28, 2007 by Rick Research

[David M]

Just back after a week of absence

Another addition to the rolls which are allready out there:

the Hessen-Darmstadt (Grossherzogtum Hessen) rolls. I contacted the archives at Darmstadt and got the following result:

Einen vollst?ndigen ?berblick ?ber die Ernannten, ihren Rang und das Verleihungsdatum des Ordens erhalten Sie durch die Gro?herzoglich Hessischen Ordenslisten, die im Druck in Darmstadt erschienen sind. Die letzte publizierte Ordensliste (Ordensliste 1914) wurde am 10. September 1913 abgeschlossen und enth?lt s?mtliche Namen der zwischen 1870 und 1913 Geehrten (S. 21-194). Die vor 1870 Ausgezeichneten sind in der Ordensliste von 1898 enthalten. Wenn wir diese Seiten f?r Sie digitalisieren sollen k?men Kosten in H?he von 5 ? f?r die CD und rund 90 ? f?r die Aufnahmen des 1914er-Bandes auf Sie zu. Bei dem Band von 1898 m?sste man die einzelnen Seiten heraussuchen, die nur die Verleihungen vor 1870 betreffen. Hier d?rften die Kosten um mindestens die H?lfte niedriger liegen.

anyone who wants to jump in

just kidding

David M