EK 1914 Rim jobs....

[Chris Boonzaier]

I see that frosted WW2 crosses can still be "Mint" but very much doubt silver WW1 crosses can have bright shiny silver rims unless someone did a polishing job.

When someone offers you a condition A imperial cross... do the rims matter to you? Is there a price premium because it has a good polishing job?

Is the condition of the core not the better way to grade these?

Black silver rims are honest patina... says nothing about the condition of the cross itself?

How do you guys judge these?

[Tom Y]

Black is beautiful. Ma Nature spent up to 90 years making it that way and who are we to change it? Might as well carve presidents' heads on a sacred mountain

To me the core's the main thing and the original patina's a plus. The only thing I'd use on an EK is an artist's brush and a light coat of non-oily rust preventative.

[Paul L Murphy]

I never realised rim jobs had anything to do with Iron Crosses

[gregM]

No polish.

[Tony J]

I like them natural, not 'enhanced'.

Tony

[joe campbell]

i've been on both sides of the fence.

(NO, boonzaier, not the rim job fence...)

i have a large majority which have seen only a bit of soap and water.

i have a few which gleam like the sun.

i like them both, and my rational for the shiners is that

if they showed up in parade uniform with "patina",

they'd be peeling spuds...

i agree with tom.

i can't recall ever seeing a really spectacular core

where the rim didn't follow.

joe

[Richard Gordon]

I think ultimately tarnished is best and usually this give nice contrast to the ribbed portion of the frame. However, I wouldn't turn down a nice example just because it was shiney and clean.

Rich

[Glenn R]

Some crosses develope a really attractive patina, whereas to me some don't. Dependant on the silver. I have been known to polish but only where I think it detracts from the cross. I purchase based on the quality of the core details and the constuction of the frame and attachment device.

So I'm largely a non polisher with a tendancy towards the occasional guilty rim job! (Mrs R would be so proud)

[buellmeister]

The darker the better is the way I like to see them. However, if there is particular MM out there not currently in my collection, I certainly wouldn't turn down purchasing it. (If the price was right of course).

Regards,

Joel

[Mike K]

Hi Chris,

Interesting topic!

I don't know how many times I've seen a nice tarnished WW1 EK described as "mint" - how can it be mint if it's tarnished!! More often that not, a polished cross is described as "mint" (although the core may be worn) and a higher price will be asked. Things are more expensive if they are shiny. I've seen very few 1914 EKs (pre-1930 or so) that I think have been in original, unpolished condition.

Rarity aside (which imo is most important for valuing), for grading I would look at the overall wear on the core AND the frames (and hardware for 1st class). I would disregard the patina as aesthetic in purely grading a cross, as opposed to valuing a cross where patina is important. The quality of the frame joins and core characteristics are imo aesthetic also (some crosses I'm sure looked "rough" or had poor detail - like KOs - when they were brand new) but, again, they certainly effect the final price!

Wear to the beading, loss of paint, rust, the join of the frames, alterations, whether there is any minor or significant damage (cracked core, frame/beading dings, frame/seam separation, hardware repair, etc) would all imo effect a grading (ie, those things that happen after the cross has been finished). Personally, I would grade a polished cross below a cross with old patina simply because by polishing you are messing with the cross. Beading die flaws would be hard to assign as these flaws would have been present when the cross was "mint" (I lean towards original die flaws effecting only value, not grading).

Regards

Mike

[Chris Boonzaier]

I think we agree then...

The core is the most important thing, rust free and black as the devil. The colour of the rims is no big deal as they are usually silver and the patina is normal.... WW2 crosses be a bit different.

The final quaestion.... can we automatically assume that if we see a bright, shiny set of WW1 rims... that they have been polished?

[gregM]

not neccessarily. I think it really depends on how the cross was stored. I have seen

a few EKs that looked very clean and bright that I do not believe were polished.

[Mike K]

not neccessarily. I think it really depends on how the cross was stored. I have seen

a few EKs that looked very clean and bright that I do not believe were polished.

Ditto to Greg's response

Regards

Mike

[joe campbell]

not necessarily, BUT!

i have polished the occasional cross and

found that over the course of a year or two,

they start the patination/staining process anew.

most often when i see a screamingly bright

cross, i assume it has been polished.

joe

[PKeating]

Depends perhaps upon how numismatically-minded you are. Numismatists - coin collectors- consider patina an integral aspect of the coins they collect and will regard a polished coin as worthless unless it happens to be of the rarity of, say, a British 1933 penny or Edward VIII sixpenny piece. I tend to view core condition as the main focal point when it comes to Imperial Iron Crosses. I also happen to find deep patina or "toning" on the silver very attractive but this is a personal viewpoint. I have a cased EK1 by KO which is in truly mint condition or the closest I have ever seen to true mint in a 1914-issue EK. The silver remains as bright as it was when new, as does the finish on the core. I love the piece but I cannot see myself polishing a richly toned cross to achieve an approximation to the mint appearance. You see, even though the KO is mint, with bright silver, the silver surface of a recently polished cross would never, in my opinion, be quite like the untouched surface of the mint piece. This is why coin collectors have such a zero tolerance attitude to the question of polishing or even aggressively cleaning coins. Once you examine the piece through a loup, you can see the gouges and ridges imparted by whatever polish you used. True, soldiers and veterans would not have paraded with black-rimmed Iron Crosses but we are not the soldiers and veterans in question. We are custodians of history and its artefacts and our job is to arrest deterioration as much as possible without trying to turn the clock back by assaulting the items in our care with Silvo and Brasso.

Edited to add a couple of snaps of the KO EK1 in question, taken about five years ago. She's still in the same pristine state.

PK

Edited April 12, 2007 by PKeating

[Stogieman]

I don't think I've ever cleaned a military order or decoration beyond a soft-bristle brush to loosen up dirt. An archive-quality camel hair is just right.

Spotlessly clean always gives me pause to instantly wonder what else is wrong...

[joe campbell]

the numismatic perspective is an interesting one.

i guess the cleaning process really can take it's toll...

that is quite a nice EK you have there!

previtara a few years back had an 1870 EK 1 that

had been cleaned/polished/HONED to within an

inch of its life that he was selling for someone.

we both looked at each other and just shook

our heads a little...

joe