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mravery

Danish General Anders Gjedde Nyholm

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Hey Mike,

Ok..... this is AWSOME !!!!

I can't believe that this information was available at the library..... I can't think of any other country that would have this much information openly available for officer's records....

AND... you found a pic of him wearing my uniform :love:

Question..... will the library (for a fee) make a copy of that photo for me (some will.. some wont) ?

Now........ to find the missing parts (hat, belt etc)..... and the orders.........

Oh...... I can't tell in his pic... but how would he have worn that many commander's orders ?

You've gone 'above and beyond' in your research... and it is greatly appreciated !

Cheers

Mark

Edited by mravery

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Oh.....

and would it me safe to assume that the Netherland, Oranje-Nassau Order would be without swords ?

Cheers

M

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The photo wasn't from the library unfortunately. I don't really remember where I got the image (I don't have the actual photo) - maybe from an internet auction somewhere. So I'm afraid this JPG image is all I have (I didn't even reduce the image size before I posted it).

Regarding the wearing of breast stars:

He didn't end up having that many breast stars - 2 Grand Crosses (Denmark and Belgium), 3 Commander's Crosses (Finland, Italy and Netherlands) and the Oldenburg Offizierskreuz, so they could actually be placed on his left side chest (sometimes the sash would cover some of them). In the special case where a recipient wanted to wear all his stars and couldn't make them fit on the left side, the would 'spill over' on to the right side.

In the picture he has obviously chosen to wear a 'choice selection' of his decorations. However, there is a couple of 'no-nos' in his picture:

- Around 1915 it was decreed that the trifolded ribbon (or whatever you call it in english) should be worn with the left half as the upper half (like in my post #19), so that the ribbons would overlap away from the chest. This would make the most prominent order the most visible one. It can clearly be seen that Nyholm didn't change the ribbon on his Dannebrog Silver Merit Cross. :shame:

- He is wearing 5 orders on his medal bar, but the Swedish Order of the Sword is placed in the third position instead of the second. It's hard to se what order #2 and #4 is, but they look like the Mecklenburg Greifen Order and the Russian St. Anne. Maybe he felt that since the Greifen order was his first foreign award, it should be placed first - just after the Danish one. :shame:

The last one seems to be the Finnish Skyddsk?rernas f?rtj?nstkors.

Well, I guess he could get away with it... :D

/Mike

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Oh.....

and would it me safe to assume that the Netherland, Oranje-Nassau Order would be without swords ?

I'm not an expert in that order, but I would assume - since he's in the army - that it would be awarded with swords...?

Or does the swords on this order represent a war-time award...?

/Mike

Edited by Great Dane

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Hi Mike,

It's the neck awards that I'm curious about.. as far as how they were worn....... Normally, on single breasted tunics (i.e. Imperial German).. they would wear them down the center... basically one for each button..... But on a double breasted tunic (like Nyholm's).... I don't know where they would be worn ?

Bummer about the picture... I was hoping it was one that you had scanned somewhere.......

I'll have to ask the Dutch boys about the Netherland, Oranje-Nassau Order..... It was my opinion that the swords was a war time award... but I'm not certain.

Cheers

Mark

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Oh, I misunderstood your question about the Commander awards...

Regulation states that one is worn around the neck and the rest in a single row similar to the normal medal bar, but on the right side of the chest. The orders on the bar are mounted in a trifolded ribbon similar to knight crosses etc. (just on a wider ribbon).

On a double breasted tunic the bar is placed at the upper edge of the button-over part (which is slightly higher that the normal bar on the left side chest). If there are many Commander awards they should overlap slightly.

According to regulation the top edge of the normal bar (on the left hand side) on a double breasted tunic should be between the top button and the next button. It looks like Nyholm placed his bar a bit higher...

I don't really have any pictures of people wearing that many awards on a double breasted tunic. Probably most multi-decorated recipients chose to wear only some of their awards...

/Mike

Edited by Great Dane

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Hey Mike,

Actually... you just answered another quesiton I had... on his tunic.. there is a set of loops that are just slightly under the overlap portion of the tunic on the right side.. that would explain those :cheers:

I'll try to take some pics later today of the tunic and post them... showing osme close ups and the loops arraingments.

Also... I think the second medal could be the Anhalt Bear...... as the ribbon colors kind of match up.... (just a guess)...

Cheers

M

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Hmm... I don't think it's the Anhalt order, because that one is round (or elliptical to be more precise).

I have enlarged the medal part of his picture, and in my opinion both order #2 and #4 are crosses with dark enameled cross arms and brighter centers. This could be both the Greifen Order and the St. Anne order...

I won't judge it from the ribbon color alone. The ribbon of the Greifen Order is dark yellow (and red edges) which often comes out as dark grey on B/W photos (just look at all the photos of Germans wearing the Wilhelm II Jubilee medal). The ribbon of the Swedish Order of the Sword is a brighter yellow (and blue edges).

But anyway, it won't affect your choice of awards for him... :)

/Mike

Edited by Great Dane

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Ok....

so we have the first 4..... Dannebrog, Griffen, Sword, St. Anne..... so.... what is the last one with the light collored ribbon with dark stripes ?

It looks like it might even have a rosette on the ribbon ????

Now... granted... this pic was taken post 1926 sooooo perhaps it's something that came after that.

Cheers

Mark

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Hey Mike,

That is great info.... and I really appreciate it........ So...... check me and see if I'm correct....

If I were to repicate his awards as of, say, 1925

Awards circa 1925

Rank, Major General

Medal bar (7 medals):

Denmark, Order of Dannebrog, Silver Merit Cross (awarded 14. Jan. 1909)

Anhalt, Albrecht der B?r (Knight 1. class)

Finland, "Skyddsk?rernas Fortjenstkors"

Mecklenburg-Schwerin, Greifen Orden (Knight 1. class)

Oldenburg, House- and Merit Order ('Offizierskreuz')

Russia, Order of St, Anne (3. class)

Sweden, Order of the Sword (Knight 1. class, awarded 1906)

Neck Orders:

Denmark, Order of Dannebrog (Commander - Christian X version)

Finland, Order of the White Rose (Commander 1. class)

France, Legion d'Honneur (Commander)

Italy, Order of the Crown (Commander 1. class)

Netherland, Oranje-Nassau Order (Commander 1. class)

Sweden, Order of Vasa (Commander, awarded 1912)

Breast Star:

Belgium, Order of the Crown (Grand Cross)

I'm not sure as to the date of the Belgium Crown, the Finnish orders or the Italian...

Whatcha think ?

Cheers

Mark

Hi Mark

When you say replicate, do you mean to make another bar from scratch for the uniform or just put the individual pieces on. Locating the orders that you need will not be the problem but to duplicate the orginal bar you will need an expert for that. Certainly a challenge

Sincerely

Brian

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The last one seems to be the Finnish Skyddsk?rernas f?rtj?nstkors.

I don't think it has a rosette - I think it's the top tunic button shining through.

/Mike

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When you say replicate, do you mean to make another bar from scratch for the uniform or just put the individual pieces on. Locating the orders that you need will not be the problem but to duplicate the orginal bar you will need an expert for that. Certainly a challenge

Not necessarily. Danish bars are fairly simple - if you have the orders on the trifolded ribbon (OK, that could be a challenge for the foreign awards...) it's just a matter of attaching them to a metal thingy.

All the Danish mounted bars I have seen is mounted this way (the oldest being from the 1910s).

Here is an example:

/Mike

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Hey Brian,

Yes.. I plan on creating a bar for the display.... I've made Brit ones before....... and I knoew someone who could make the German style.....

I'll worry about that once I can find all the correct orders/medals.....

Mike.... can you post a complete front and back pic of your bar ?

Cheers

Mark

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Sure can (it has of course nothing to do with Nyholm - just an example of the Danish mounting).

(in this case the 2 Dannebrog orders have been returned)

/Mike

Edited by Great Dane

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Not necessarily. Danish bars are fairly simple - if you have the orders on the trifolded ribbon (OK, that could be a challenge for the foreign awards...) it's just a matter of attaching them to a metal thingy.

All the Danish mounted bars I have seen is mounted this way (the oldest being from the 1910s).

Here is an example:

/Mike

Hi Mike

Thanks for pointing that out, from the obverse it would seem to be a complicated procedure as in some of the German bars. The Danish style of mounting is absolutely fantastic, just adore :love: those Danish style trifold ribbons.

Sincerely

Brian

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Hey Brian,

Yes.. I plan on creating a bar for the display.... I've made Brit ones before....... and I knoew someone who could make the German style.....

I'll worry about that once I can find all the correct orders/medals.....

Mike.... can you post a complete front and back pic of your bar ?

Cheers

Mark

That will be good fun for display purposes, funny if the orginal turned up. If you can't find any of the orders let me know perhaps I can help.

Sincerely

Brian

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Hey Mike,

Thanks for posting... !!

What is the length of the pin (from hook to hinge )?

also... how are the medals secured inside the ribbons ?

Cheers

Mark

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That will be good fun for display purposes, funny if the orginal turned up. If you can't find any of the orders let me know perhaps I can help.

Sincerely

Brian

Hey Brian,

I'm always open for assistance when it comes to locating the orders...... I have found a few with some on-line deals.. but they are always 'pricey'..... so if you know of any.. please let me know..... especially the commander's sets and orders... and perhaps the Silver merit cross... I found one.. but it's for Christian X......

So.. let me know if you come across any !

PS.... I LOVE that bar of yours !!!!!!

Cheers and thanks !

Mark

Edited by mravery

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The length of the pin on the medal bar shown is 15 cm, but remember this is a 6 medal bar.

The medals are attached to a hook sewn onto the back ribbon. I have 'pulled apart' a medal to show the principle

/Mike

P.S: Beautiful bar Brian, I remember seeing it in another thread.

Edited by Great Dane

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Mark,

A note about finding the Frederik VIII Silver Merit Cross:

Remember that all orders was/is to be returned upon the death of the recipient. They would then be re-cyphered (i.e. the 'F R VIII' cypher under the crown would be replaced by a newer cypher) and awarded again.

This means that early specimens are not just hard to find because they are old, but very hard to find because they are old and removed from circulation...

To give you an idea of the no. of Silver Merit Crosses awarded, I have listed some of them here:

Christian IX (1863-1906): ~7000

Frederik VIII (1906-1912): ~1700

Christian X (1912-1947): ~12000

During the 2. Danish-Prussian war in 1864 the Silver Merit Cross was used as a decoration for bravery, hence the high number for Christian IX. Frederik VIII only reigned for 6 years, so they are very hard to find.

/Mike

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The easr of "replicating" may be one thing, but the ETHICS are quite another issue.

:banger::banger:

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The easr of "replicating" may be one thing, but the ETHICS are quite another issue.

:banger::banger:

Hey Ed,

Why would there be an ethics question about this ??

If no bar was destroyed to create the new bar and it was created from singles... and if it was not passed off as 'original'.... what is the ethics issue ?

To create a uniform display that is accuate to the original owner, in my mind, is the best possible option (keeping in mind my two previous requirments).

Mike,

Would the owner continue to wear the originally cyphered order once a new ruler was power or would they then use the new cypher in the event that a new medal bar was made ?

Cheers

Mark

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Ok guys,

I hope this pic comes out... here are the loops and the size of the loops (distance) on the tunic........ Any idea of what was worn where ?

Cheers

Mark

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The recipient would continue to wear his award with the cypher of the King it was awarded under. Of course if he was promoted from, say, Knight to Commander the Commander badge would have the cypher of the new King and the Knight badge would be returned.

Hmm... I'm definitely not an expert on uniforms so my only guesses are that his latest medal bar goes through the 8 cm loops. Maybe an earlier bar used the 5.5 cm loops which are in a more correct position according to regulations. Then, after receiving som Commander awards, he felt he had to put his medal bar in a higher position to match the Commander awards on the right breast.

I doubt both loop pairs were used at the same time - I have never seen any Danish officer wearing his medals 'french style'.

I would suggest his Dannebrog Commander Breast Star (actually it's a Cross) goes in the most prominent position using the 5.5 cm vertical loops (the distance between the hinge and the hook is actually 5.5 cm), and maybe the small Oldenburg Offizierskreuz would use the 2.5 cm loops.

The loops along the right side buttons may have been used for other Commander badges. I know that Hussars are allowed to place them there, but I don't know about others (or maybe he just felt it looked better to put them there).

/Mike

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