Yankee Posted April 29, 2007 Share Posted April 29, 2007 Hi MikeInteresting to learn that the Dannebrog Silver Merit Cross would be returned upon death to the State and the Royal Cypher would be swaped out. Was this done for economic reasons? The Merit Cross as I can see looks like it has not changed in almost 200 years. Is there any way to tell an early cross from a later strike if the cyphers have been changed? With the Order itself there are certain characteristics of the early types such as a concave shape and the crowns between the arms are wider. I have never seen a Frederik Vl or Christian Vlll cross with a later cypher I suppose that would be a highly sought after piece or is it just very few were ever issued back in the early 19th century. Hi MarkThere is a dealer in denmark that specializes in Danish with good selection of higher classes, check out his site www.medals.dkSincerelyBrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Dane Posted April 29, 2007 Share Posted April 29, 2007 Brian,Yes, I'm sure economical reasons played a big part in the return policy, but I guess it was also a matter of continuing the tradition from when the order was instituted in 1671.Frederik VI changed the order to a multi-class order and opened it to a wider audience resembling the French Legion d'Honneur (we were allied with Napoleon back then). When Frederik VI died it was decided to change the appearance of the order as a tribute to him. The reverse now contained his name 'Fr.VI' on the upper cross arm and the year of his change (1808) was moved to the lower cross arm.So no crosses from his reign were re-cyphered, but from Christian VIII and onwards crosses were reused. Even today you can be awarded a cross from the Christian VIII period (1839-48) with the cypher of Margrethe II.Unlike the enamelled crosses which had some small adjustments to the design around the beginning of the 20th century, the Silver Cross has kept it's appearance./Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mravery Posted April 29, 2007 Author Share Posted April 29, 2007 Hey Guys,Do you have any idea what a 'reasonable' price would be for some of these orders....... as I have no idea what the going rates are....For instance.. I know a dealer who has the silver Merit cross for Christian IX for about $550...... (which would work for a filler until I can find the correct one)... But I have no idea if that is a good or bad price... Also.. the Dannebrog commanders set as there seems to be a wide price range....CheersMark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Dane Posted April 29, 2007 Share Posted April 29, 2007 (edited) Mark,I can only answer for the Danish awards, so someone else will have to help with the others.The Frederik VIII Silver Cross is very hard to find and will cost you $1500-$2000. If you want a filler, the cheapest one is the Christian X version, which can be found for approx. $500. Actually $550 is not a bad price for a Christian IX version.A Christian X Commander set will cost you $2000-$2500. The Christian X version is actually the cheapest version, but the price will vary depending on the badge being gold or silvergilt.The Breast Crosses have changed a bit over the years (3 official models - last one from approx. 1960) but the differences are small. Note that the Breast Crosses do not have any royal cypher, so in that sense they are 'generic'.For the other awards, I think the Russian St. Anne, the Oldenburg Offizierskreuz and the Mecklenburg Greifen Order will be the most expensive ones./Mike Edited April 29, 2007 by Great Dane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Dane Posted April 29, 2007 Share Posted April 29, 2007 Mark,Allow me to correct myself:Browsing through my books of Danish Navy officers, there actually are examples of officers wearing their medal bars in two rows, where the badges of the top row cover the ribbons of the bottom row (what I call 'french style').Also, placing Commander awards along the right side buttons is more common than I thought.../Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted April 29, 2007 Share Posted April 29, 2007 Hi guysFascinating the Statutes on return for the Dannebrog go back to 1671. Your Silver Merit cross is well made, were they marked? Interesting to note in the knight class, that I have it is profusely hallmarked and earlier ones are not marked. Ahhh the prices can fluctuate greatly on the same item Mark. Our hobby ( orders & decorations ) is based on the euro that is on the European side of it. Euro is up 50% these past few years partially the reason for the steep dollar quotes. I Agree with Mike 550 dollars ( 380 Euro ) is a good price for a early Dannebrog Silver Merit Cross. I purchased my Danish a few years back so I don't know the current prices. You can find a Frederik Vlll but it will take some time. I know the Frederik Vlll knights can be found but I think the Silver Merit Cross are more rare. What is a pleasure in collecting the Danish Dannebrog order is that you need not worry about fakes unlike the Russian material. Be very careful in the Russian orders there making excellent copies even in the lower classes in gold. The prices I noticed recently are insane. In the Probus auction the knights from the late 19th- 20th century fetching 2000-3000 dollars. In the auction there was a ( first time for me to have seen one up for sale ) very early 1800-1810 Swedish Sword knight that went for 700 dollars go figure something so rare goes for so little and something so common to the roof. Oldenburg State is heavily copied in some classes, Griffin far as I know no problems. Legion of Honor 3rd Republic are common prices 400-1000 dollars depending if silver gilt or gold. Italian Crown commander gold 300 dollars & Swedish Vasa commander 700-1000 dollars.Hope it helps.SincerelyBrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mravery Posted April 30, 2007 Author Share Posted April 30, 2007 Hey Guys,Well... the Silver Merit Cross in on it's way.. thanks for the thoughts on the value.....I have found a few of the others.. but they seem kind of common so I might wait to see what comes up.... The Griffen is about $500.... The oldenburg... might be $1200 (I have a line on one but I think there is enamel damage)... I have yet to find a St. Anne........ The Sword I found for around $600 (gold).... The Italian Crown is everywhere so that's not a problem.... I Vasa is around.. and the going rate seems to be about $1000 (gold)..... I really hope that the Orange Nassu can be without swords.. as with swords will be very tough I'm afraid (I posted in another link.. but no replies yet).....Mike,With the two sets of loops... would it be safe to say that the top set (8 cm) would be for 3 medals and the bottom set (5.5cm) would be for 2 medals ?CheersMark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Dane Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 Brian,No Silver Merit Cross I have seen has been marked and only some Knight Crosses. Most (all?) Commander badges are marked - at least the gold ones.Mark,Well, your guess is as good as mine (yours is probably better when it comes to uniforms... ), but your suggestion seems plausible./Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 Hey Guys,Well... the Silver Merit Cross in on it's way.. thanks for the thoughts on the value.....I have found a few of the others.. but they seem kind of common so I might wait to see what comes up.... The Griffen is about $500.... The oldenburg... might be $1200 (I have a line on one but I think there is enamel damage)... I have yet to find a St. Anne........ The Sword I found for around $600 (gold).... The Italian Crown is everywhere so that's not a problem.... I Vasa is around.. and the going rate seems to be about $1000 (gold)..... I really hope that the Orange Nassu can be without swords.. as with swords will be very tough I'm afraid (I posted in another link.. but no replies yet).....Mike,With the two sets of loops... would it be safe to say that the top set (8 cm) would be for 3 medals and the bottom set (5.5cm) would be for 2 medals ?CheersMarkHi MarkYour Silver Merit Cross looks great, looks to be on a Austrian style trifold ribbon. Send a larger scan if you can. Oldenburg you need to examine very carefully the pinbacks & stars are copied widely. ThanksSincerelyBrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mravery Posted April 30, 2007 Author Share Posted April 30, 2007 Hey Brian,I'll make the scan once I get it in hand....Thanks for the warning on the Oldenburg.....If you know of one... please let me know.CheersMark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Dane Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 Zeige has an Oldenburg Offizierskreuz (lot 8) in the forthcoming auction on May, 26th, but it seems to be connected to the award document in lot 9 (or am I wrong in my assumption here?) and it would be a real shame to split them.There is also an Offizierskreuz with swords in lot 78. Next big question: Was Nyholm awarded the version with or without swords? Zeige Auction/MikeLot 8 and 78: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 Brian,No Silver Merit Cross I have seen has been marked and only some Knight Crosses. Most (all?) Commander badges are marked - at least the gold ones.Mark,Well, your guess is as good as mine (yours is probably better when it comes to uniforms... ), but your suggestion seems plausible./MikeThanks for that Mike, next one to come across will not think twice and jump on it. Now that I think about it have not seen all that many around. Interesting to note Czar Nicholas ll is always wearing a Dannebrog Knight. SincerelyBrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Dane Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 (edited) Allow me to correct you: Czar Nicolaus II is always wearing his Dannebrog Silver Merit Cross (he was also Knight of the Order of the Elephant and Grand Commander of the Order of Dannebrog). Grand Commander is a special class reserved for royalty./Mike Edited April 30, 2007 by Great Dane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 Zeige has an Oldenburg Offizierskreuz (lot 8) in the forthcoming auction on May, 26th, but it seems to be connected to the award document in lot 9 (or am I wrong in my assumption here?) and it would be a real shame to split them.There is also an Offizierskreuz with swords in lot 78. Next big question: Was Nyholm awarded the version with or without swords? Zeige Auction/MikeLot 8 and 78:Mike in Zeige's Table of Content where is lot 8 & 9 located?Best to request a scan of the reverse that will tell us a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 Mike found it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Dane Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 (edited) Under the heading "Ordensnachla? eines Kommerzienrat".EDIT: Darn, you were too fast /Mike Edited April 30, 2007 by Great Dane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 Hi MikeIt is an award document for an officer cross but there is no way of telling if this is the cross that accompanied the document. Mark request a scan of the reverse if you decide to bid on it. SincerelyBrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 Allow me to correct you: Czar Nicolaus II is always wearing his Dannebrog Silver Merit Cross (he was also Knight of the Order of the Elephant and Grand Commander of the Order of Dannebrog). Grand Commander is a special class reserved for royalty./Mike[/quoteMike thanks for correcting me, thinking it might have been the Silver Cross since he already would have recived the GC of Dannebrog but being czar he could wear what he likes as another member pointed that out. Interesting to know which cypher he had.SincerelyBrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Dane Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 Czar Nicolaus II Dannebrog Silver Merit Cross was the Christian IX version (awarded 11. Sept. 1891) /Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mravery Posted April 30, 2007 Author Share Posted April 30, 2007 Zeige has an Oldenburg Offizierskreuz (lot 8) in the forthcoming auction on May, 26th, but it seems to be connected to the award document in lot 9 (or am I wrong in my assumption here?) and it would be a real shame to split them.There is also an Offizierskreuz with swords in lot 78. Next big question: Was Nyholm awarded the version with or without swords? Zeige Auction/MikeLot 8 and 78:Hey Guys,Wow.. ok..I step away for a couple of meetings and this thread had a ton of activitiy.....Ok.. first....... Mike, my thoughts on the size of the medal bars was just a guess..... and since I don't have any to measure the pins and your 6 banger was 15cm... it only made sense about the 3 medal bar being 8cm.Ok.. I have asked for better pics (front and back)....It was my option that the swords for the Oldenburg did not come into existance until 1914 (could be wrong) so if that is the case.. his would be without swords.CheersMark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 Czar Nicolaus II Dannebrog Silver Merit Cross was the Christian IX version (awarded 11. Sept. 1891) /MikeThat is really great , I had it narrowed down to 3 cyphers. Mark yours could be the Czars own Does anybody know what happened to Czar Nickolas's bar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mravery Posted April 30, 2007 Author Share Posted April 30, 2007 That is really great , I had it narrowed down to 3 cyphers. Mark yours could be the Czars own Well... it WILL be.. when I sell it CheersMark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Dane Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 Mark,My 3 piece medal bars are all with a 7 cm hinge and the 2 piece bars with a 5 cm hinge, so I guess that combination would fit (give or take a bit...)/Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mravery Posted April 30, 2007 Author Share Posted April 30, 2007 Mark,My 3 piece medal bars are all with a 7 cm hinge and the 2 piece bars with a 5 cm hinge, so I guess that combination would fit (give or take a bit...)/MikeHey Mike,Thanks.... so that would mean that:Bar one:Denmark, Order of Dannebrog, Silver Merit Cross Mecklenburg-Schwerin, Greifen Orden (Knight 1. class)Sweden, Order of the Sword (Knight 1. class)Bar two:Anhalt, Albrecht der B?r (Knight 1. class) - Russia, Order of St, Anne (3. class)Sure will look purty when it's done...... (if it doesn't break the bank first )CheersMark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 Hey Guys,Wow.. ok..I step away for a couple of meetings and this thread had a ton of activitiy.....Ok.. first....... Mike, my thoughts on the size of the medal bars was just a guess..... and since I don't have any to measure the pins and your 6 banger was 15cm... it only made sense about the 3 medal bar being 8cm.Ok.. I have asked for better pics (front and back)....It was my option that the swords for the Oldenburg did not come into existance until 1914 (could be wrong) so if that is the case.. his would be without swords.CheersMarkHi MarkDo not know when the swords came into play however the officer class was created in 1903. There is also swords above the cross as well . There is even a class with swords and a laurel wreath . You could ask a memeber from the German States forum I'm sure somebody can answer you correctly.SincerelyBrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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