House Order of Hohenzollern - info needed

[Mattyboy]

The death notice for Franz Külp does not mention the HOH3x. It could have been the Hptm Külp from IR 81, or Hptm Carl-Leo Külp from IR 118 & Kadettenhaus Karlsruhe. 

 

[webr55]

Very interesting! I think this might be easily resolved: It is Franz, but the award was a posthumous one, which had been in process already. The death notice appeared before the papers were processed. 

[webr55]

This is one with a fascinating background story: I came across this article in the Hamburger Nachrichten (18.8.1931) written by an "A. Agricola", who mentions that he got the HHOX as Nachrichtenoffizieru while being involved in the armistice between Austria and Russia. Some research turned out that this name was only an alias for the real name Alexander Bauermeister (translated into Latin), who became famous after WW1 for writing about his secret service activities, both in German and English ("Spies Break Through: Memoirs of a German Secret Service Officer", https://books.google.de/books/about/Spies_Break_Through.html?id=wYcCAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y).

 

He was originally from KürR 5, ended WW1 as Olt aD. 

Edited December 30, 2020 by webr55

[webr55]

Btw, it seems that the later General dF Helmuth Förster is missing on the list: 

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmuth_Förster

 

GM Leopold Graf Fugger birth/death data: 1893-1966

 

Some Lw sources credit Generalrichter Egon Koepsch with HHOX, but the attached picture of him shows he got the Princely one. 

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by webr55

[Daniel Krause]

Great stuff,friends!!!

Many Thanks!!!!

I am surprised about Wahlen, there are hardly any Navy HOH missing...

Weinknecht- I do not think he had one. The Reichswehr ranklists do not show it. If  I read his bar correctly, I see EK, KVK, FEK Austria, Long service... no HOH.

Best,

Daniel

 

P.S.

Same for Gerstenberg... I have my doubts because it isnotin fhe reichswehr lists...

Gronau - sure.. but it is a postwar no-swords award.

[webr55]

I definitely agree about Weinknecht, it should be listed in one of the RH lists, and those RK sources are too unreliable.

Gerstenberg - I guess you are right as well, but he dropped out of RH after some years to leave for Moscow, so there might be uncorrected mistakes in the lists. He is listed with HHOX in Hillgruber, I just wonder from where he got that information. The pictures I found of Gerstenberg are too blurry to be useful. 

Edited December 29, 2020 by webr55

[webr55]

But how about GL Lw Ernst Krüger, originally from FR 86? Again, Luftwaffe sources credit him with HHOX, and there is this picture of him, which very much seems to have the HHOX on the bar:

[Mattyboy]

Hi webr55, 

You might be right about Franz Külp, it's a shame that we do not have other contemporary evidence to confirm it. Thanks for the additional info on Frhr v Canstein. If anyone has details of his WW1 career I would be very happy to hear from you! 

Here is a pre-war photo of GL Ernst Krüger and his ribbon bar. He is possibly the Oblt who is mentioned in the MWB dated 02nd March 1918. 

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Mattyboy

[Daniel Krause]

Hello  friends, 

 

Will check these 2 guys tomorrow. 

 

I am sure about Franz Külp as I had him already with Fliegerabt. 35 in my list.

 

Best;

Daniel 

[Mattyboy]

Found this (slightly poor) photo of Franz Külp from the book 'Deutsche Naturwissenschaft, Technik und Erfindung im Weltkriege'

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Mattyboy

[webr55]

Another new one: Lt Leopold Ganser

From Hamburgischer Correspondent und neue hamburgische Börsen-Halle, 15.10.1918

Some more info on Oberst aD Carl Will:

 

From Hamburger Nachrichten, 12.6.1934

[webr55]

Stellv. Polizeipräsident Zenke, I guess this is the LtdR Zenke in our lists:

From Hamburgischer Correspondent und neue hamburgische Börsen-Halle, 27.4.1933

[webr55]

Looks like a new first name: Flieger Lt dR Alfred E Petersen

Death notice from Hamburger Nachrichten, 4.1.1930

Edited December 30, 2020 by webr55

[Daniel Krause]

thanks!!!!

Krueger is a very clear hit!

Petersen is originally from Baden.

2 LtdR Petersen quite close together with the HOH...so one is clear now :-)

 

Best,

Daniel

[Dave Danner]

On 28/12/2020 at 10:21, Mattyboy said:

Here's a strange one. Because I cannot find anything about his WW1 career, not even his regiment. Luftwaffe officer Richard Freiherr von Canstein:- 

https://www.lot-tissimo.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/hermann-historica-ohg/catalogue-id-srher10030/lot-e57fef7a-a8f3-420b-ae1a-a6a501200b96 

 

On 28/12/2020 at 11:27, webr55 said:

Great addition!  

What I have from the Luftwaffe sources:

CANSTEIN, Richard, Freiherr von. (DOB: 24.02.95). 01.04.34 RDA as Hptm. 02.04.35 Hptm., b.d.Offz.z.b.V.d.R.d.L. (Sonstige-Offz.) attended Infanterie-Lehrgang Königsbrück (to 28.05.35). 09.39 Maj./Obstlt., Stab/JG 3. 1940 in Stab/JG 51 and then Stab/JG 3. 01.09.42 provisional Kdt. Fl.H.Kdtr. 35/XI, promo to Obstlt.(z.D.). 05.12.42 appt Kdt. Fl.H.Kdtr. Rheine. 08.03.44 Obstlt., appt Kdt. Fl.H.Kdtr. A(o) 10/VI, Bonn-Hangelar (still 02.45).

 

But I cannot find him either before that. Must have come in during WW1 as a Reserve Officer. 

Friedrich Richard v. Canstein was not a Freiherr, or at least was not elevated to one until after 1938 at least. He is in the Taschenbuch der uradeligen Häuser under the house of "Rabe von Canstein", from which the Freiherr lines did originate. There he was listed as a Leutnant der Reserve in Fußartillerie-Regiment Nr. 9. He is listed in the Militär-Wochenblatt as "v. Canstein" (no "Rabe" or "Frhr."), promoted to Leutnant der Reserve der Fußartillerie (I Cöln) on 25 May 1916, at the time in Fußartillerie-Batterie Nr. 249. Fußa.Bttr. 249 was in fact a Tochterformation of FußAR 9.  

He was born on 24.2.1895 in Köln-Lindenthal and died on 20.9.1974 in Dattenfeld an der Sieg as an Oberst a.D. and Fabrikant. The HOH3X is mentioned in the 1986 edition of Gotha.

On 25/11/2020 at 12:58, webr55 said:

Hopefully helpful: Lt dR Gustav Meier from IR 55

Westfälische Neueste Nachrichten, 13.7.1918

Meier did not have the HOH3X at the time he received his LKEK (the Empfang was dated 14.5.1918, although the award was made on 30.4.1918), and he was killed on 6.7.1918. So that makes him likely the Meier gazetted in the MWB on 29.6.1918. He was born on 15.2.1892 in Sylbach a.d. Bega and was a Landwirt in Heerserheide, Schötmar.

[Dave Danner]

On 27/11/2020 at 04:52, webr55 said:

We From Wiesbadener Tagblatt, 23.7.1918  have a Lt Weil, but this might be a new one, an Olt dR Weil:

This one bothers me.

There were three Leutnants der Reserve Weil in the 1914 Prussian Army rank list, one each from FR 80, IR 83 and IR 143. There was one Bavarian Leutnant der Reserve, Oskar Weil from the 5.FAR. No Saxon that I know of.

Paul Weil from IR 143 was killed in action in 1914. 

Something happened to Oskar Weil, who was a Gerichtsassessor in Wiesbaden, by Fleury on 12.9.1914 and he was in the hospital and the Ersatz-Abteilung until being retired as a Lt.d.R.a.D. on 21.2.16.

Alfred Weil from IR 83 was commanded to the Fliegertruppe and was taken prisoner in 1916. It seems like he can be ruled out because (a) he was born and lived in Kassel, (b) IR 83 is not connected to Wiesbaden, and (3) he was promoted to Lt.d.R. on 18.12.13. They only began promoting 1912 Lts.d.R. to OLt.d.R. in the middle of 1918, so a 1913 commission would still be a Leutnant. This also would appear to rule out the various Weils promoted to Leutnant der Reserve during the war.

Wilhelm Weil from FR 80 seems like a good possibility since FR 80 was from Wiesbaden. However, he was the most senior of these Lts.d.R. and was already a Hauptmann der Reserve in 1915. He was a Regierungsbaumeister in Betzdorf, given the Charakter of Reg.- und Baurat in 1918, and is shown with only the EK2 and Prussian Verdienstkreuz für Kriegshilfe in the 1918 Prussian court and state handbook.

So the likeliest case is that the Wiesbadener Tagblatt got the rank or the name wrong. Weil might be right, since that is a family in Wiesbaden (there was a Leutnant d.L. Georg Weil born there in the casualty lists). But he was likely a Lt.d.R. (or Lt.d.L. Georg).

[Mattyboy]

Hi Dave, 

Thanks for the added info on von Canstein!

Lt dR Alfred Petersen also had the BZ3bx, BsV, HH and pilot's badge. 

Here is a first name and award info. Hauptmann dL Otto Rasehorn. Published in the Hamburger Nachrichten on 07th July 1918:- 

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Mattyboy

[webr55]

Not sure we have him already: flyer Joachim v. Schröder (1885-1929), died in a crash as a Lufthansa captain. 

 

From Hamburger Nachrichten, 20.12.1929

[webr55]

I was also trying to sort out the Kaltenborn-Stachaus, I think they were already discussed here.

In the RL 1914, we have:
 

1) a Hptm in IR 64, M aD

that must be Hans Carl Friedrich Rudolph von Kaltenborn-Stachau, 1877-?, he is the one who got the HHOX

 

2) a Lt in GG1, KIA 1914

that must be Friedrich Heinrich Rudolf von Kaltenborn-Stachau, Olt, 1885-1914

Both 1+2 were sons of GdI Hans Carl Georg von Kaltenborn-Stachau , 1836-98, Prussian Kriegsminister 1890-93

 

3) an Olt in FR 80

that must be Joachim Bertold Gustav Franz, (char) M aD, 1884-1972, 1941 Oberst, son of GL Ludwig v. Kaltenborn-Stachau, 1846-1931

 

4) a Lt in FußArt Schießschule, kd z Sem. f. orient. Sprachen, H aD from Schutztruppe DOA 

that must be Roland Rudolf, 1884-1934

 

5) another Lt dR in IR 82

[Daniel Krause]

Thanks guys,

 

V. Schroeder is indeed new.

 

Best,

Daniel

[Dave Danner]

On 28/12/2020 at 17:44, Mattyboy said:

The death notice for Franz Külp does not mention the HOH3x. It could have been the Hptm Külp from IR 81, or Hptm Carl-Leo Külp from IR 118 & Kadettenhaus Karlsruhe. 

 

The Hauptmann from IR 81 was Hans Christian Friedrich Ferdinand Gustav Eduard Külp, *12.8.1885 in Cassel, †27.3.1963 in Hailer, Gelnhausen. Promoted to Hauptmann on 24.12.14.

Carl-Leo Külp was born on 7.11.1885 in Bessungen, Darmstadt, and was living in Darmstadt after the war. He received the BZ3bX in 1914. He had a son who was killed in action in World War II as an Oberleutnant. 

Franz Arthur Külp was born on 11.4.1879 in Eberbach in Baden. He was in the field with RIR 118 before going to the Fliegertruppen. The SA3aX and SS3a mentioned in the Eberbacher Geschichtsblätter can be confirmed from Roth's list of Saxon awards and from the Sveriges statskalender.

[Dave Danner]

On 30/12/2020 at 04:56, webr55 said:

Stellv. Polizeipräsident Zenke, I guess this is the LtdR Zenke in our lists:

From Hamburgischer Correspondent und neue hamburgische Börsen-Halle, 27.4.1933

Zenke is Karl, according to the Stettin Adreßbuch. He may be the Zenke promoted to Lt.d.R. (I Berlin) in RIR 201 on 2.9.1915. The only other Zenke I found in the Militär-Wochenblatt was Lt.d.R. Walter Zenke, who was killed in action shortly after being promoted to Lt.d.R. in IR 172.

[webr55]

Happy new year! We continue: More on Olt dR Werner Triebner:

From Hamburgischer Correspondent und neue hamburgische Börsen-Halle, 08.09.1927

 

[webr55]

KL Kurt Siewert died 1934.

From Hamburger Nachrichten, 7.2.1934

 

[webr55]

I don't think we have him yet: Lt dR J. P. Jensen:

 

From Hamburgischer Correspondent und neue hamburgische Börsen-Halle. 5.6.1918