Turkey Turkish Pilots Badge variations

[Luftmensch]

Helmut Weitze has a new Turkish flying badge in stock. Could it be a fabled Turkish-made piece? Looks a little ragged in construction but the enamel painting seems pretty meticulous...

[Josef Rietveld]

@Luftmensch

Weitze writes in his description that the piece is of german production. I agree with this conclusion because of the style of the thugra. Especially the 'el-gazi'-kalligraphy, it stands by the way for 'the victorious' (above the right side of the thugra), looks definetelx different from the turkish made el-gazi i know (picture).On the other side the asymmetric wings of this badge look the way the turkisg badges are made.

My conclusion: A german piece done by a manufacturer who based his work on a picture or drawing of an original turkish piece.

regrads

haynau

[Stogieman]

I hate to throw water on this, but I have never seen a pre-1920 example of any pilot badge, from any country with that clutzy hinge/catch set-up. I don't like it at all. My 2-Cents, for what it's worth.

[Josef Rietveld]

I hate to throw water on this, but I have never seen a pre-1920 example of any pilot badge, from any country with that clutzy hinge/catch set-up. I don't like it at all. My 2-Cents, for what it's worth.

I didn't write that it is a before-1920-piece

That ist what weitze writes

1. Weltirkieg Abzeichen f?r Milit?rflugzeugf?hrer Es handelt sich bei diesem St?ck um eine deutsche F.

.......

.......Eines der weningen Orignalst?cke.

the last sentence means 'ones of the few original pieces'

So I' am no expert in flying badges. I know why i collect medjidies and osmanies.

So when stogie is right, then is weitze wrong and the badge was made 1925 to 1945.

maybe there are some other opinions on the hinge-problem

haynau

Edited November 30, 2005 by haynau

[Luftmensch]

It is a funky pin/hinge. That's one reason why I thought it might be non-German manufacture. But if it's later, pre-1945 manufacture, then it's still original in my book. I'm amazed no one has a Turkish Turkish pilot out there to compare !

[Christian L]

the hinge/pin constructions looks like steinhauer und l?ck from the 57er awards, or not?

[Chris Boonzaier]

the hinge/pin constructions looks like steinhauer und l?ck from the 57er awards, or not?

Me thinko the same-o.

[Luftmensch]

Chris and Chris, what's a "57er award"? Do you have a picture?

Rgds

[Stogieman]

In my opinion, no German made that badge prior to 1960......

[Chris Boonzaier]

Chris and Chris, what's a "57er award"? Do you have a picture?

Rgds

Hi Luft,

Refering to the flattened top part of the pin which at first glance seems very post warish.

[Gerd Becker]

Hi Luft,

Refering to the flattened top part of the pin which at first glance seems very post warish.

Here is an example. Sold by Detlev Niemann. I think, these supposed to be Steinhauer & L?ck style?

[Tim Tezer]

I think Helmut Weitze is for the most part a perfectly honest dealer, but outside of German material he sometimes makes mistakes. That badge doesn't look pre-1945 to me, but of course it's just my opinion. Note that Herr Weitze also has a Turkish submarine badge which he lists as a WW1 issue example. There is no such thing as a WW1 Turkish submarine badge. That badge is a standard Turkish Republic officer's sub badge, still in use today. It may be an older example, but probably not earlier than the 1950's.

As for Turkish made WW1 pilot badges, I have yet to see one with a Turkish maker's mark, so even if you found one that appeared to be Turkish made, unless it had some kind of markings to indicate that, at best it would be a matter of conjecture. Even German made pieces do not seem to be frequently maker-marked. I have seen Paul Meybauer marked examples, many of which may be fakes, and I have seen bronze examples that are unmarked but have characteristics attributing them to Glaser & Sohne of Dresden. Other than that, I haven't seen any Turkish pilot badges with identifiable origin.

Tim

[Tim Tezer]

Here's a new twist. Steve French sent me these photos and asked me to comment on the variant badge and post it on the forum. First, the photos:

[Tim Tezer]

Now my assessment of it:

The inscription at the top is is laid out in a calligraphy style that makes it difficult to read, but I am pretty sure the first word is "Turkiye". Although it doesn't really look like it, I suspect that it may say "Turkiye Cumhuriyet", or Turkish Republic, which would suggest that the badge is mid 1920's. In the late 1920's, the Turkish Republic adopted a Latin-based alphabet, doing away with Arabic script, so this probably wouldn't date any later than that.

I doubt, however, that this was actually an officially sanctioned badge, as the date of the founding of the Ottoman Empire placed at the bottom is a holdover from the Ottoman badge that this was probably cast from, and would have no place on any official badge of the Turkish Republic. It might have been something that was made to order for a pilot who had qualified for the badge during WW1, and wished to keep wearing an "interim" version after the Empire was abolished.

Obviously, the badge is rather crudely made, and it would be easy to dismiss it as simply a fantasy item, but the pin attachment is consistent with later Turkish badges (early examples of the Submarine badge dating from the 1930's to the 1950's used this style of pin).

Tim

[Luftmensch]

Fascinating, Tim. Thanks!

[Stogieman]

My understanding of the "submarine" badge is that it's a purely 1950's piece with really good marketing.. Tim's Badge looks like a quite crude cast badge that I would not even begin to know where to date. I cannot imagine with German, Austrian 7 Turkish made examples leftover from WW1, why someone would want something this cheesy looking in 1920....

[Luftmensch]

Yeah, with the only wrinkle that no one can find a WW1 Turkish made badge to compare it with...unless this is the first one we're seeing?

[Stogieman]

Well, given the absolute rubbish-like quality of the issue TWM, I suppose that's possible. But I would argue that this style pin is a post WW1 example for sure, more , like 1930's, IMO. So that doesn't fit with a war-time issue theory..... I've passed on many of these, afraid to even go there....

[Stogieman]

Here's a bizarre variation that is unlike any others I have seen. 1950's??

[Stogieman]

Reverse:

[Luftmensch]

Reverse:

Stogie, you talking about the pin?--which I've never seen before--otherwise, from the front, it's like 99% of the badges I see, some with Meybauer markings. most with not. What's bizarre?

[Stogieman]

Bizarre part is I actually like the quality of this one. First one in forever. despite the fuzzy scans, it actually looks legit. My question would be legit from when? 1920's? 1930's?, 1970's?

[Luftmensch]

Bizarre part is I actually like the quality of this one. First one in forever. despite the fuzzy scans, it actually looks legit. My question would be legit from when? 1920's? 1930's?, 1970's?

Then I'll post my Meybauer, as soon as I steal my camera back from my girlfriend...I thought you'd been having a bad run of luck when you wrote earlier that you see Turkish pilots every week and they all look bad to you. I've seen a fair amount of these decent ones at bigger shows over the years. Though if eBay is any judge, the trend in quality is nosediving.

I always assumed they were 1920s and 30s. But you've seen plenty of Meybauer Prussians from the 50s and later, so why not Turkish?

Edited January 6, 2006 by Luftmensch

[Tim Tezer]

Bizarre part is I actually like the quality of this one. First one in forever. despite the fuzzy scans, it actually looks legit. My question would be legit from when? 1920's? 1930's?, 1970's?

The photos are kind of like my vision when I'm not wearing my glasses, only my vision is actually blurrier.

I think it's legit, probably 1920's or 1930's. Not so bizarre at all.

Tim

[Luftmensch]

The photos are kind of like my vision when I'm not wearing my glasses, only my vision is actually blurrier.

I think it's legit, probably 1920's or 1930's. Not so bizarre at all.

Tim

Hi, Tim! When is your employer going to make you head of your own WW1 aviation department? On a more reverential note, have you ever held one of those WW1 Turkish propeller fezes?

Rgds

John