Soviet STALIN : New (old) icon in Putin's Russia

[Christian Zulus]

Gentlemen,

the well known historian Simon Sebag Montefiori (and Stalin-specialist) writes in TIME-Magzine:

"Now Stalin has become the best barometer of Russian leadership style. New state textbooks hail Stalin as "the most successful Russian leader ever" and a state builder along the lines of Peter the Great and Bismarck. ... Ironically, Stalin the Marxist?born a Georgian cobbler's son?has become the icon and prototype of the strong Russian Tsar, the hero of a resurgent, capitalist Russia."

http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/per...1695993,00.html

That's a state-official book for school children written by Alexander Filippov and Pavel Danilin: "The History of Russia 1945 - 2007". Two person play a very great and important role in the book: Putin & Stalin.

Maybe Putin might realize the "Stalin-Order-Project" .

BTW: Conservative groups inside the Russian Orthodox Church want to convert comrade Stalin into a (real & authentic) saint for the Christianity ...

So Putin might create in some years the new Russian order of the "Saint Stalin" .

Best regards

Christian

[Riley1965]

I'll keep this short..."The 2nd Cold War has begun!!!"

Doc

[Hauptmann]

Hi all,

Upon reading this thread I simply cannot remain silent. But I will start out by saying I am not trying to anger, hurt, offend or put off anyone with what I'm about to say. However... I deeply and strongly feel it MUST be said.

I suppose all those wonderful people who so idolize Stalin would not mind at all if the purges were reinstituted... so that millions more (including those who support the return of Stalinism) can march to their deaths in the new Gulags or at the hands of the new state executioners. Hope they all have fun being killed off with a bullet in the head or by being worked and starved to death in the prison camps.

While I'll agree that the Soviet Union ended up needing a very strong leader to bring them up to the level of the other world powers of the time, especially as things turned out in needing to defeat nazi Germany... but what an incredibly horrible price they paid, before, during and after! The blood of millions cries out... NEVER AGAIN! But seems no one is listening.

Here's hoping they have fun being marched off to prison, the gulags or their deaths!

And just a reminder... at least in my eyes a large part of what we must do in collecting relics of the Soviet state (or nazi Germany or any other such tyranny) is to show and teach people that such things really did happen... and MUST NEVER BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN AGAIN!

Dan

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Dan,

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn wrote the most famous novel about the life in a Soviet labor camp:

One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Day_in_th...Ivan_Denisovich

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Solzhenitsyn

You have to read that (small) book .

Best regards

Christian

Edited December 28, 2007 by Christian Zulus

[Christian Zulus]

I'll keep this short..."The 2nd Cold War has begun!!!"

Doc

Maybe .... who knows ?

When I look at Serbia/Kosovo, then I see a more or less "Cold-War-Confrontation" .

Best regards

Christian

[Chuck In Oregon]

Dear Dan,

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn wrote the most famous novel about the life in a Soviet labor camp:

One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich

<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Day_in_th...Ivan_Denisovich" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Day_in_th...Ivan_Denisovich</a>

<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Solzhenitsyn" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Solzhenitsyn</a>

You have to read that (small) book .

Best regards

Christian

* * * * *

Yes, I was just about to recommend Solzhenitsyn. I wonder where he fits in the texts. I am in the process of reading the unabridged Gulag Archipelago. I don't know what else you would need to form an opinion of Stalin, the NKVD and Soviet communism. His stories are gripping, his insights are profound and his style is wonderful. I can't believe it took me this long to get around to reading it.

If Stalin is so good, what does that make Beria et al, not to mention Solzhenitsyn's aptly-described "tens of thousands of human beasts"?

Chuck

[Christian Zulus]

I don't know what else you would need to form an opinion of Stalin

i.e.: US-President F. D. Roosevelt's view about him ....

I recommend the two (rather new) Stalin-books of Montefiore - excellent sources:

http://www.simonsebagmontefiore.com/

As most of the anglo-americain historians dealing with the history of the CCCP, his view is somehow "State-Department-Biased" (soft censorship works!), but tons of first class material .

Best regards

Christian

Edited December 29, 2007 by Christian Zulus

[Ed_Haynes]

You do have to be careful with Solzhenitsyn as he is, after all, a novelist and not a historian. His religious and essentially "tsarist" biases also have to be taken into account.

Still, a fine enough novel (not up to the standard of Bulgakov's The Master and Margarita), but NOT history.

But this is ???

Edited December 28, 2007 by Ed_Haynes

[Christian Zulus]

Soviet labor camps vs. German extermination camps

... and geting back to the topic

You do have to be careful with Solzhenitsyn as he is, after all, a novelist and not a historian. His religious and essentially "tsarist" biases also have to be taken into account.

Still, a fine enough novel (not up to the standard of Bulgakov's The Master and Margarita), but NOT history.

But this is ???

Dear Ed,

you are right: It's not history. But I guess, that Solzhenitsyn captures somehow the "atmosphere" inside the labor camps of Beria's NKVD (or KBG) in a rather realistic way.

If you compare the content of Solzhenitsyn's small novel with the content of one of the great reports about AUSCHWITZ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp , then everyone will understand the hughe difference between extermination camps in the Western World (i.e.: Germany & Himmler) and labor camps in the Eastern World (i.e.: Soviet Union & Beria).

The labor camps of the insane madman Beria hadn't been THE ultimate "hell on earth". The "hell on earth" had been Auschwitz, Majdanek http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majdanek , Treblinka http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treblinka_extermination_camp , etc., etc.

Geting back to the topic:

I simply think, that Russia sees now the history of the 20th century in a more objective & sober light - in opposition to most of the western mainstream-historians. So Stalin gets a bit out of the "evil corner" and the NKVD-system (as a uncontrolable "state inside the Soviet state") is geting even more evil - that's a trend, I can see among Russian historians.

I guess, that the Russian government want their own "Napoleon" . Bonaparte was also a great military leader and a modern statesman ("Code Napoleon"), but with a lot of shortcomings and of strange nature.

Again: Have a look at the material Montefiore presents in his 2 Stalin-books.

Best regards

Christian

[new world]

Throughout Russian history we observe figures that are both great and tragic. We see man and women contributed enourmously to development of Russia, but their achievements are often shadowed by the cost, especially human cost.

Peter the Great, Ivan the Terrible, Catherine II, Lenin, Stalin - these all are great leaders of Russia.

Take Peter and Stalin - both managed to transform Russia from a backyard of Europe into major world power. Yes, there were sacrifices - think of thousands of laborers who died while building city of Petersburg in the swamps of Neva. Think of even more laborers who vanished on Stalin's projects.

No one denies there were shocking and tragic losses. But one needs to keep in mind the realities of the period. Just think about it - Soviet Russian managed to achieve in 10-20 years what took the rest of the world centuries. He also was at helm of Russian when fighting in WWII.

From this prospective Stalin can be viewed as great leader.

William

[Christian Zulus]

No one denies there were shocking and tragic losses. But one needs to keep in mind the realities of the period. Just think about it - Soviet Russian managed to achieve in 10-20 years what took the rest of the world centuries. He also was at helm of Russian when fighting in WWII.

From this prospective Stalin can be viewed as great leader.

Dear William,

that's a 100 % correct view of history .

Best regards

Christian

BTW: Not so many (non-Russian) people in NYC might share your view .

[Andwwils]

It's a very muddy thing to look at. The reasoning and ideology of Stalin and "Stalinism." It's hard to determine whether Stalin was acting out of megalomanical motives, ideological motives or a combination of both. It is safe to say that life now and into the future will go on in Russia like it always has. Great literary works documenting the suffering will continue to be written and thousands upon thousands if not millions of ordinary prols and peasants will play through the motions of living through whatever government is presently in power and the common-people will ride-out whatever crisis, internal or external that they are dealt.

All-in-all, there may be a return to totalitarianism in Russia, but there is as of yet no reason to believe that any events similar to the ones that lead to the October Revolution, War Communism and a genuine attempt at acheiveing socialism on Earth through debate and revolutionary activities will happen any time soon in the "Old Union." Stalinism mayy come back, but the true spirit of the 1917 Revolution is still very much dead.

I love Russian literature! I plan on reading the book prescribed in this threat "One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich." I recently finished reading "The White Guard" by Mikhail Bulgakov and plan on reading "The Brothers Karamazov" as soon as I finish reading the copy of "Yong Stalin" that I received for Christmas. I gave my significant other a copy of "The Master and Margarita" for Christmas in exchange. Crime and Punishment changed my life!

Edited December 30, 2007 by Andwwils

[Andwwils]

I like to tell people, in defense of Stalin, the following:

"Before Stalin, Russia had the plow. After Stalin, they had nuclear bombs and Sputnik."

Who knows what the Soviets of Workers, Soldiers and Peasants could have been able to achieve had a more "balanced" leader taken over after the death of Lenin and the insuing power struggle. Bukharin and his ideas have always been near and dear to my heart, but, of course, revisionist history is something I try to refrain from. But it should be noted that ALL of the prominant leaders associated with the rise of Communism in Russia were firm believers in violence and suppression. Even Kerensky and his ilk advocated violence and suppression. So it may be unfair to paint Stalin as a singular boogey-man.

Edited December 30, 2007 by Andwwils

[Riley1965]

I still think that with the Purges and labor camps it would be disgraceful to elavate Stalin to Sainthood After all it was Stalin who said "Bring the machineguns, Let's liquidate the diplomats".

Doc

Edited December 30, 2007 by Riley1965

[Nick]

This has deviated into one of those classic 'who was worse? Stalin or Hitler' threads which are prevalent across a multitude of internet forums. They usually devolve into body counts and examples of brutality in an attempt to either somehow demonstrate one regime was more evil than the other, or even worse make a case to excuse one genocide as being somehow not half as bad as the other. Unfortunately such rhetoric just serves to support individuals with perverted ideology from both sides of the political fence.

I am glad to say so far this has not happened, but this is dangerous ground to tread and as a consequence this topic may be locked.

[Knarf]

Hello, I think this problem is too serious to end up with political phrases or talk about history. Now we are at the beginning of a new Cold War. This one can be a very nasty one. So you can stop your discussions and start thinking about the things which will happen in future.

regards

Frank

[Christian Zulus]

EU-Legislation

Dear Nick,

due to the legislation in Austria (and some other countries at the continent), you might go straight to prision, if you state, that Herrn's Hitler Germany and comrade's Stalin Soviet Union did crimes at the IDENT level .

I really wouldn't like, if www.gmic.co.uk would be blocked in Austria and some other EU-states ....

O.K., that's not the point of this thread - I just informed about an article in TIME-Magazine about Russian's President Putin and how his government sees the history of Russia in the 20th century.

Due to the EU-legislation you can publish what ever you want about Joseph Stalin & CCCP, but you are very restricted about what you publish about Adolf Hitler & Nazi-Germany - just a hint ...

It's not a matter, who has deviated a thread at your GMIC-platform, it's just a matter of EU-legislation .

Please take care, that GMIC stays in "Hitler vs. Stalin discussions" within the EU-laws - many thanks .

Best regards

Christian

BTW: I have changed my avatar - no more comrade Stalin ....

This has deviated into one of those classic 'who was worse? Stalin or Hitler' threads which are prevalent across a multitude of internet forums. They usually devolve into body counts and examples of brutality in an attempt to either somehow demonstrate one regime was more evil than the other, or even worse make a case to excuse one genocide as being somehow not half as bad as the other. Unfortunately such rhetoric just serves to support individuals with perverted ideology from both sides of the political fence.

I am glad to say so far this has not happened, but this is dangerous ground to tread and as a consequence this topic may be locked.

[Nick]

I have removed the off topic posts from this thread and as predicted have decided to lock this topic.

Christian I have no idea what you are babbling on about in relation to EU law.

I can assure you I am quite aufait with UK law and ECHR in relation to:

a) what can lawfully and legally be discussed here at GMIC (being a forum owned and controlled by a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain),

b) can reassure you and all members that the rules and moral standards that are applied here would never even come close to breaching any statute,

and

c) also within my limited understanding of laws in certain European States that forbid the sale and promotion or glorification of anything related to the Third Reich or nazi party , this does not apply when the items or discussions are used in an art form, for scientific or historical research, teaching or reporting. I think this forum easily falls within the historic research context and anyone posting anything otherwise would automatically fall outside of forum rules, so the point is mute.