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Hello

Im a spanish militaria collector,new on this forum, Im interested in navy caps from over the world,recently I purchased a ww2 kriegsmarine sailor,s cap made by maker:cobra sonderklasse,the inside celuloid piece has the maker,s name cobra,and has a cobra painted on celuloid,and written cobra sonderklasse,gutte mutzen. When was used for this cap a single piece,eagle an cockade separated like mine and one piece for the two things and has anybody listened about cobra maker?

Thanks and regards from spain

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HELLO

IM FERNANDO FROM A SPAIN,A NEW COLLECTOR OF NAVY CAPS,I ATTATCH PICS OF MY ONLY ONE KM SAILOR,S HAT WITH A DIAMOND INSIDE WITH THE MAKER,S NAME COBRA,AT THE MOMENT I HAVE ONLY THIS,I THINK WILL BE FROM A PRIVATE PURCHASER.I HOPE ENJOY THIS PICS OF MY ONLY ONE KM CAP.THANKS

FERNANDO.

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  • 2 months later...
  • 2 years later...

The problem with private purchase sailor caps is that you will probably find it almost impossible to get a unanimous vote of confidence from other collectors. Personally I would only ever consider buying a regulation issue piece as it is far easier to determine their originality. Private purchase pieces will always have questions hanging over them as so many of the firms that made them were still in existence when the Bundesmarine was formed and also manufactured very early Bundesmarine caps.

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The problem with private purchase sailor caps is that you will probably find it almost impossible to get a unanimous vote of confidence from other collectors. Personally I would only ever consider buying a regulation issue piece as it is far easier to determine their originality. Private purchase pieces will always have questions hanging over them as so many of the firms that made them were still in existence when the Bundesmarine was formed and also manufactured very early Bundesmarine caps.

hi gordon

i agree with you...with a km private purchase as mine always is difficult to get a final determination because probably is impossible find another COBRA sailor cap with logo as mine and even is difficult find more COBRA from others branches of wehrmacht too and another prob is than the COBRA maker was used for janke,s fakes and others...

and probably is imposible to get info about the maker(how many differents logos used and place in germany where was based...)

my conclusion is the materials are the real key for these private items but not the total key...

regards

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Hello!

This KM Sailors Hat is BUNDESMARINE.

All the best

Morten.

im not an expert but it is to easy say :this KM SAILORS hat is bundesmarine and no more words....why is a bundesmarine and even without take on your hands?

at the moment the only person who had on his hand this cap was KM-SPAIN and he never said this hat was 100/% OK but never said BUNDESMARINE too...and may be you have one BUNDESMARINE cap with logo as mine....?even Gordon said for those private purchase cap is not easy to know and always will be difficult to know and get the agreement from the whole people...

please could you explain step by step why is a BUNDESMARINE cap or why is not a KM cap when at first was impossible to say with those pics... and now with more small pics you are really sure is bundesmarine...

all the best :shame: but im not so sure BUNDESMARINE cap,this thing at the moment is difficult to prove it and of course difficult prove it KM cap too

Edited by SICHERHEITSDIENTS
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I don't know how you can tell about this cap without examining it "in hand". Personally, I haven't seen anything at all that would tell me conclusively that it is Bundesmarine.

Gordon is right about private purchase vs. issue. The same problem exists, to some extent, with caps from other navies or foreign made material which might have been used. Everything, to me, boils down to the "feel" you get after looking at a cap in your hands.

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SICHERHEITSDIENTS

The hat you posted does not look like a Bundesmarine cap to me. It is only fair to post a Bundesmarine cap for comparison when someone makes a statement like that. I'll post some pictures of a blue topped BM cap as soon as I can.

Regards,

Gordon

post-1609-060469300 1290808360_thumb.jpg

Edited by Gordon Craig
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SICHERHEITSDIENTS

The hat you posted does not look like a Bundesmarine cap to me. It is only fair to post a Bundesmarine cap for comparison when someone makes a statement like that. I'll post some pictures of a blue topped BM cap as soon as I can.

Regards,

Gordon

i would thank you post a BUNDESMARINE cap for comparison as soon as possible to give an explanation to a person who posted short response(THIS IS BUNDESMARINE CAP..)

nr nesredep didn,t argue me any reason to say such thing,it is too easy say such response without explanations..!!!!!

perhaps even the hat could be SPANISH NAVY...isn,t mr nesredep....????????? for the same explanation than bundesmarine cap: :banger:

Edited by SICHERHEITSDIENTS
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i would thank you post a BUNDESMARINE cap for comparison as soon as possible to give an explanation to a person who posted short response(THIS IS BUNDESMARINE CAP..)

nr nesredep didn,t argue me any reason to say such thing,it is too easy say such response without explanations..!!!!!

perhaps even the hat could be SPANISH NAVY...isn,t mr nesredep....????????? for the same explanation than bundesmarine cap: :banger:

Hello!

???

Morten.

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<!--quoteo(post=231558:date=Jan 3 2008, 09:57 :name=Michel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Michel @ Jan 3 2008, 09:57 ) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=231558"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Impossible to say with this pictures.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Hello!

I agree. <img src="http://gmic.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />

All the best

Nesredep

Hello!

Sorry for my short comment.My English lever is VERY poor.And my commen was only my IMO.I think when you need to comment a bad Badge you no need comment with many words.You can see the badge forum,many members only comment with

my IMO is................. .Next time i vill only look at the thread and no comment.

All the best

Morten. :cheers:

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There was no colour difference between BM and KM. There may be colour differences between individual caps, but this is nothing to do with whether they are KM or BM.

Actually from an external view, your Kriegsmarine cap does look like a Bundesmarine example. Kriegsmarine caps would normally have a wider, softer top. The smaller tops are usually typical of the Bundesmarine era.

Kriegsmarine caps usually have a larger, floppy top like this one.

post-101-019989700 1290843440_thumb.jpg

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Gordon,

Did the KM caps always maintain the same shape as the one you posted above? Period photos seem to illustrate that in the early years of the war the KM hats were shaped like those above. Pictures identified as being taken in the final years of the war seem to show a KM cap shape closer to that of the second type of BM caps.

Reference yesterdays discussion. The cap I posted previously is an early BM cap. Those below are of the second, and the much more common type, of BM cap. You will note that BM caps have he makers lable sewn to the base of the cap. The makers name is stamped on the removable top. Sometimes there is a similar style makers lable attached to the removable tops of BM caps like this. The only way that a plastic type of makers lable could have been sewn into the interior of the cap without the stitching being visible on top is if the base of the cap had some sort of material top. The removable top would then be placed over this enterior top. I have not seen this done on this type of BM caps but it is done on some visor caps that were probably private purchase. While all BM caps that I have seen have these sewn in lables they would not be difficult to remove if someone wished to do so.

I can not comment on KM caps as I do not have sufficient knowledge in this area.

Regards,

Gordon

post-1609-040137500 1290871130_thumb.jpg

Edited by Gordon Craig
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You should look at as many photos of caps in wear during wartime as you can. I believe you will find that the vast majority do, in fact, have the "floppy" appearance. I am compelled to say, however, that occasionally you will see one that does not. I would assume that these are the ones which are non-issue pieces and come from other sources. This all goes back to the uncertainty in knowing, for sure, about a "different" piece. To me, it again returns to materials, construction, and the "feel" of the cap, in hand. I still believe that the interior of your cap uses the accepted wartime 'Cobra' configuration, but only "in hand" can tell. Apparently, KMSPAIN has held this one, and that's good enough for me.

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Yes, there were certainly KM caps which did have a less floppy appearance, usually because the cap-spring was still inside the top. I believe there was in fact a specific size that KM tops were supposed to be(I do somewhere have a note of the regulation dimensions)and that this was larger than the typical BM top.

Of course once you get into "private purchase" the size and materials used in regulaion caps may well not have been followed. This is why I have chosen never to own anything other than regulation issue caps where determining originality is quite simple and you will never end up with a cap that will always be the subject of debate and uncertainty. Like blue-lined Bordmützen, private purchase Matrosenmützen are things I wouldn't touch with a bargepole.

The cap in question here may be a period piece, but its not one I would ever want to own, but thats just a matter of personal preference. It would be interesting to hear Michel's take on this one. His is the opinion that would swing it for me on KM headgear.

Private purchase sailors caps are like SS M-43 caps, for every one who likes it there will be someone else who will swear its bad.

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Gordon and Harrier,

Thank you for your coments. This has been a very informative thread fro me.

Regards,

Gordon

finally i agree it is impossible get a final determination with my cap,the last thing i lift the sweatband and folded the lining to look at stiffener and was dusty and when i cleaned with my finger point without break sttitching i saw a black stiffener and soft ,heavy,(vinyl or plastic was possible only for private cap or what material it could be but it is not carboard for sure...what it could be? because in the suppose the hat is original KM private purchase cap as all the thing from this cap is rare or a mistery and i think it is difficult to know...

thanks for discussing to all:cheers:

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