Republic of Ireland Irish 1916-20

[Paul L Murphy]

Who is the seller?

he just think about money and money!

This response is inappropriate for GMIC. Show some more maturity in your response going forward, the reason collectors actually have something to collect is because family members are willing to sell items which do not hold the same interest for them as they do for the collecting community.

[gerardkenny]

For anyone interested in Irish militaria (particularly Independence Era items) there is a major auction tomorrow Saturday November 13th 2010 at Whytes:

http://www.whytes.ie/

HISTORY, LITERATURE & COLLECTIBLES

Saturday 13 November 2010

Click for: Searchable on-line catalogue or Printable PDF

VIEWING: at our galleries, 10-12 November 10am-6pm and 13 November 9.30am-12 noon.

To register for Live Bidding click here.

For catalogue changes click here

For information on live bidding click here

TV3 News feature on History Auction

Irish Independent story Irish Times story

The catalogue is here in .PDF format and well worth checking out - the prices have nosedived compared to the dizzying heights of just a few years ago:

http://www.whytes.com/AuctionPDFs/20101113.pdf

Eirman it might be an idea to check out the current whytes prices & which items meet their reserve in this current market.

PS There is also the North Star fair tomorrow in Dublin.

[Strapper]

Totally correct Paul. i think without further ado Kapten_windu should be reduced

to a Non com officer, lets say Corporal. From now on Corporal_windu, stand up

when addressed by a senior officer and do not bring disrupute on this forum

or fellow enlisted men........DISMISSED.......:-) Now that takes me back a bit.

Regards

Strapper

[eirman]

My advice would be to put them into an auction since it is very difficult to value these. The ribbons are for the 1916 Medal and the 1917-21 Medal.

You could try sticking the lot into ebay as well, with good photos. If you can get some of the original pension documents which confirm the recipients name it would add a lot more collector's interest (including myself !).

Thanks for the ID on the ribbons ... It means that I have a 1916 box and ribbon

I'll probably put them up in the next whytes auction (03/11).

I might give ebay a shot in the meantime. The problem is setting a reserve price ... Too high and no bids ... Too low and just one bid and I'll be wishing that I had gone the auction route.

Any suggestions for a reserve price ?

[gerardkenny]

Just back from the Whytes auction in Dublin. The Fenian flag went for €52,000. Lot 183 the Irish Independence era/'Civil War photograph collection was withdrawn from sale before it began but all the other Rising /Independence era items seemed to be selling very well. Lots 153/4/5 the RIC Revolver and indian made Lee enfield (both apparently Irish Volunteer captured items) went quite well - if I recall correctly 3 x the reserve.

Edited November 13, 2010 by gerardkenny

[Ulsterman]

wow!

Oh to go back 20 years.

[gerardkenny]

I'd be interested to hear what others make of the provenance on some of these items. Such as Padraíg Pearse's belt buckle (Lot 164) ;

1916. Pádraig Pearse’s Irish Volunteer belt buckle – a unique

and rare memento of the leader of the 1916 Rising

Provenance:

Emmet Humphreys, (1902-1977), Fianna Éireann (1909-1916), later Captain E

Company, 3rd Battalion, Dublin Brigade, IRA until 1923;

thence to the present owner’s father, a prominent Belfast republican.

A unique memento of the leader of the 1916 Rising, with impeccable provenance

of two well known republican families.

The Humphreys family were one of the great republican families with associations

with all the major events of the fight for Irish freedom in the early part of the

20th Century. Emmet and his brother Dick attended Pádraig Pearse’s school, St.

Enda’s, and aged 7, Emmet was one of the first members of Fianna Éireann, the

republican paramilitary scouting organisation at its foundation in 1909, and

participated in the 1916 Rising. Along with the rest of his family, including the

redoubtable Sighle, Emmet was very involved in the War of Independence and on

the Anti-Treaty side in the Civil War, and was imprisoned during both conflicts. The

family continued their support of republican causes right into the 1970s and

through that association befriended the father of the present owner of this historic

relic.

€8,000-€10,000 (£7,000-£8,800 approx.)

Price Realised: €7500

, or Willie Pearse's tunic button (168) ;

1916. Willie Pearse - a button from his tunic

Provenance:

Emmet Humphreys, (1902-1977), Fianna Éireann (1909-1916),later Captain E

Company, 3rd Battalion, Dublin Brigade, IRA until 1923;

thence to the present owner’s father, a prominent Belfast republican.

A unique memento from Pádraig Pearse’s brother Willie.

William Pearse followed his father into sculpture and studied at the Metropolitan

School of Art in Dublin under Oliver Sheppard as well as in Paris, and in the

Kensington School of Art. Some of his sculptures are to be found in Limerick

Cathedral, the Cathedral of St. Eunan and St Columba, Letterkenny and several

Dublin churches. He worked for a while in the family monumental stone masonry

business but left to help his brother Patrick run St. Enda’s School

He followed his brother into the Irish Volunteers and the Republican movement,

took part in the Easter Rising in 1916, constantly staying by his brother’s side at

the General Post Office. Following the surrender he was court-martialed and

sentenced to death, which is now thought to be due to the court’s assumption of a

much greater role for Willie than he had, and Willie did nothing to dissuade the

military prosecution from their view of his importance. He was executed on 4 May

1916.

€2,000-€3,000 (£1,800-£2,600 approx.)

Price Realised: €1800

The prices for this auction are now uploaded

http://www.whytes.com/i7.asp?Auction=20101113&Lot=1

[Paul L Murphy]

I struggle with the claims made about some of the items in this sale (as well as previous sales). The tunic button is just that, a tunic button ! The fact that it sold for EUR1,800 with only a story behind it is incredible !

Maybe I have been around too long and become cynical !

[molders]

I viewed the auction last week and there were several nice lots in it, having said that, the belt buckle was not one of them. Until recently when a well known shop closed in Dublin similar buckles were available for sale at a fraction of the price achieved. Likewise the tunic button, wheres the proof that it was from W. Pearse? €1,800 plus fees for a story? The "star" lot for me was lot 211, that police badge was lovely. I didn't get it but I did get a couple of other items in the sale that I was happy with. Overall I was surprised with the prices achieved. Given the collapse in prices in the last 18 months the items in the sale made "reasonable" amounts. There is supposed to be another one in March or April of next year and of course Adams will probably hold a sale as well. Maybe by that stage we'll be back spending punts?

[Ceallach]

Gentlemen,

An update on a previous discussion re 1916 "restrike", back in the day !

Post #94

To illustrate the observations in my previous post #81. The two officially named & numbered 1916 medals, typical for the series compared to a potential restrike from new dies. See Post #94 for images.

Ceallach

Post #81

<i>The unusual elements I would note are (1) whereas "Seachtmhain na Casca" appears precisely between 9 & 3 o'clock on the other 1916 medal's I own or have observed, in the case of this example the lettering extends substantially beyond both of these reference points; (2) the definition of the flames and to a lesser extent the rays are a remarkable contrast to the sharp detailing on the other 1916 medal's I refer to in (1) above, and (3) the ribbon suspension ring is of the larger type.</i>

The Macken medal, courtesy Paul Murphy & The Partridge medal, to be auctioned in the near future as noted elsewhere on this thread.

Ceallach

Whytes April 16, 2011 auction, Lot 241 highlights a 1916 medal #403 to M. McElroy, that has the same elements noted above and would tend to support the idea of a late "restrike". It is my understanding that no others have been issued since this.

Lot 241

1916 Rising Service Medal and 1966 50th Anniversary of the

Rising Medal, officially named to Cumann na mBan member

Mairead McElroy

by descent to present owner

Mairéad (Margaret) McElroy was born in Tyrone in 1886, the daughter of James and

Margaret McElroy. The family moved to St. Mel’s Terrace Drumcondra and later to

Richmond Road where her father and brothers worked in the carpentry trade. She took

part in the 1916 Rebellion as a member of Cumann na mBan. She was elected

treasurer of Sinn Féin in 1945 and was one of the plaintiffs during the case which

Sinn Féin took against the Attorney General relating to the ownership of the funds of

the party during the 1940s. There is a quantity of correspondence and material

relating to Mairéad McElroy held by the National Archives, relating to the court case

and also raids by the Irish Free State Army in 1923.

€5,000-€7,000 (£4,400-£6,100 approx

In addition this medal could be another example of an officially named/numbered medal outside of convention as the recipient appears to have survived after 1941. See Post #80 extract below.

Post #80

Officially named & numbered medals were also issued, post 1941, to those who were deceased prior to an application being made. For example a posthumous award was made to Jack Kavanagh (Wexford IV) who died in the 60's and for whom an application was made in the 70's by a family member.

Ceallach

An Ceallach

Will be very interesting to see the hammer price - a sign of life or a dead cat bounce ?

Regards - An Ceallach

McElroy 1916.doc

[gerardkenny]

From what I recall Lot 241 went quite high, something in the €6-7K region. If I recall correctly the auctioneer said she was a hardline republican who refused her pension and medals etc from the Free State, the medals were later claimed by her surviving family.

[gerardkenny]

Forgot to mention I believe there was also a 'Lot 241a' which was not in the calalogue, I believe it was a War of Independence with Comrac and a 1916 - can't remember for sure. When Whytes upload the prices I am sure it will be in the list.

[Paulm]

I know this is an old topic, but have this cap badge, I think it is a 1939 Officers Cap Badge and wondered what your thoughts are. The rear lugs are missing, and what sort of value would it be for insurance purposes.

[Paulm]

Anyone?

[peter monahan]

The badge may be quite common.  This is not my area of expertise but this seems a common price range for what you have: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-Irish-Defence-Forces-cap-badge-Fianna-Fail-Insignia-Metal-Hat-badge-NEW-/133334327069

 

[peter monahan]

Paul

Not my field at all, I'm afraid.  However, I am aware that the medals, which can go for as high as 1,600 Euros apparently, are being faked, quite heavily and expertly.  A quick look suggests that the badges - again quite commonly faked I think -0 can be bought for $30 US.  So, I would have the badge and it's provenance looked at by an expert dealer.  Below is some info on the medals [and fakery] and perhaps some people you can speak to.

https://thecollectorsshopblackrock.wordpress.com/2016/11/27/rare-fianna-na-heireann-medal-for-sale/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Defence_Forces_cap_badge

 

[paul wood]

The earlier one has some age and is emergency period (WW2). The one on ebay looks like a piece of cheap modern crap. While I wouldn't give a brass farthing for the ebay piece, I might give a few quid for the earlier one because it has seen some action although technically unless it happened to belong to de Valera it is probably of minimal value.

P

[Paulm]

The badge has been in my fathers collection for many years, sadly had passed away 5 years ago so cannot ask him about it. It looks genuine and the type of fastening was only on the 1939 and 1940 badges. The one on e-bay looks like tat to be honest, like a modern staybright badge.