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Strange M1957 bar with Imperial awards


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Browsing through my files, I found this image of a strange ribbon bar. It was on ebay sometime ago, and the seller said it was made for his grandfather in the 1950s. Did anyone here buy it, by chance...?

ALTE_ART___lapel_bow___Marineoffz1___1954_56_durch_die_Firma_August_Geiger_in_Kiel_gefertigt___bei_saschaw.JPG

Edited by webr55
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Those are miiiiiiiiiiine ... :P

It came with two EK I and of course name etc. of his grandfather ...

and a picture of the ~1936 medal bar that he doesn't want to sell (yet) ... :o

The bar awards are:

- Preu?en, Eisernes Kreuz 1914 II. Klasse;

- Bayern, Milit?r-Verdienstkreuz II. Klasse mit Krone und Schwertern;

- Sachsen, Ehrenkreuz mit Schwertern;

- Baden, Orden vom Z?hringer L?wen, Verdienstkreuz am Band des MKFVOs;

- Dt. Reich, Ehrenkreuz f?r Frontk?mpfer;

- Preu?en, Medaille des Roten Adler-Ordens;

- Preu?en, Kronenorden-Medaille;

- Bayern, Jubil?umsmedaille f?r die Armee;

- Dt. Reich, Wehrmachts-Dienstauszeichnung f?r Kriegsmarine I. Klasse;

- Dt. Reich, Wehrmachts-Dienstauszeichnung f?r Kriegsmarine III. Klasse.

Hard to tell without any devices, yessssss ... ;)

Edited by saschaw
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Ahhh!

I'm just wondering what rank he went out with, having had 25+ years in 1939? Can't have been Deckoffizier anymore, can he?

And if I'm counting right, there were only 19 Navy recipients of the MKVO Verdienstkreuz...

Edited by webr55
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Ahhh!

I'm just wondering what rank he went out with, having had 25+ years in 1939? Can't have been Deckoffizier anymore, can he?

And if I'm counting right, there were only 19 Navy recipients of the MKVO Verdienstkreuz...

...however, none of these 19 seems to have got the Saxon Honor Cross. Probably that list is not complete.

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In what branch?

ZERO awards for WW2-- not even a KVK2X? :Cat-Scratch:

No idea if he did anything in WW II, it doesn't look like ...

...however, none of these 19 seems to have got the Saxon Honor Cross. Probably that list is not complete.

Which of those lists? At least one seems to be incomplete, yes. The documents are lost, but ...

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Oh HIM!

Actually, he's listed on the SkrzX list but NOT on Roth's BZ4aBdMKFVM ribbon list (so add 1 to those totals).

Since his name is a big secret, I'll PM you, Chris. One of the "problems" is that his Reichsmarine entries OMIT the two pre-war medals in what must have been some attempt to conceal his former Petty Officer status. He was never a member of the MOH since (sniff) apparently one "had" to be a member of a (sniff) "Crew."

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He is NOT in Roth's published list of the BZ4 on war ribbon but it is confirmed in the naval Rank Lists.

SKrX 23.6.16 (obviously for the Skagerrak) with no first name as Signalmeister Hochsee Streitkr?fte

Reichsmarine 1924 confirms first name as Johann and date of birth 23.11.83, as well as the WW1 decorations (no others are shown in that issue), with seniority as

Oberleutnant zur See 1.4.23 #22

1931 Reichsmarine Rangliste has him as

Kapit?nleutnant zS 1.7.30 #4. Shown with his WW1 awards and (surprisingly) the XV Years Service Cross. Apparently not enough double sea time for the old XXV, which surprises me given his age. He was not a Deck Offizier in 1914, so no entry date or sea time in the May 1914 Navy Rank List on him.

Korvettenkapit?n zS 1.2.36 #1

Fregattenkapit?n zS 1.12.40 and in that rank still on active duty October 1944

He seems to have served his entire Reichsmarine and at leats 1930s career in the 1. Schiffstammsabteilung der Ostsee, as a training officer and then its commander. Every German sailor who went through basic training there would remember him.

HIS RED EAGLE AND CROWN ORDER MEDALS ARE NOT SHOWN IN THE REICHSMARINE RANK LISTS. That type of deliberate omission is what makes identifying groups so difficult! :speechless:

I can't believe he got NOTHING for WW2 !!!

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Thanks for all that information. The documents got lost at end of WWI so noone knows when the Z?hringer cross was awarded - maybe a late 1918 one, that cannot be listed in Roth?!

I can't believe he got NOTHING for WW2 !!!

Don't you believe or are you just wondering? The ribbon bar is typical 1950s or 60s and why shouldn't he have worn his WWII awards ... I wonder, too there is absolutely nothing, but though, this seems true and right ...

:o

I have his two EK I, too. One seems to be the heavily worn awarded example (the cross still worn on the ca. 1936 photo!) and the other one is from 2nd world war, purchased apparenly as his old one didn't look nice anymore ... :(

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He made KK zS in February 1936, and the Wehrmacht long services were first handed out on 1 October 1936, so from his white summer hat cover, I'd say it must be 1937 or 1938 or 1939. Maybe 1940 before his next promotion.

Oh On The Spot Baden Person :rolleyes: ... you should ask the Archive about whether they have a nice BZ4K Roll. There is no space on the IDIOTIC Z?hringen Lion Roll pages for the Verdienstkreuz, so I HOPE that there is a nice BIG plainly written :love: Roll for it, like they did for the MKFVOs and MKFVMs.

Apparently nobody ever questioned the completeness of Roth, or did any Live Investigation for that class. You could be almost as famous as Daniel and me. :catjava:

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Apparently nobody ever questioned the completeness of Roth, or did any Live Investigation for that class. You could be almost as famous as Daniel and me. :catjava:

*hrhrhrhr* not possible at the moment, but some months ... I hope so ...

Apparently nobody ever questioned the completeness of Roth [...]

I've got just ONE Besitzzeugnis, which is dated "8. November 1918". Actually he wrote "1919" but retiped it to "1918" - this is the last day for Baden awards from what I know, and the guy is _not_ listet in Roth! q.e.d.

:rolleyes:

I'll go there, one day ... I'm yet too young to be one of THOSE guys ... :o

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  • 3 weeks later...

Yes but when I was your age I was drawing illustrations for the O.M.S.A. magazines... and look where I am now. :rolleyes::cheeky:

:unsure:;)

Here are the devices I promised to scan for you, finally came to it:

the first one for BZL4 is on a 1920s bar, at least pre 1934. It has a quite uncommon swords device for an additional BZL3bX that you might like to add to you article as well, futhermore a sewn on device for the Deutsche Ehrendenkm?nze (next answer, not enough space for all three here):

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The second one is on a 1938/1945 tab back bar ... it used to came up on eBay in a lot, I was outbid and later bought it from the former buyer. This rotten fool seems to have changed the device on the Treudienst-Ehrenzeichen, no idea why or what for. :violent:

Is the current device a "bad" one?! I think so, 'cause if it isn't the exchange is even more senseless ... :banger:

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Thanks :cheers: for the BZ4 device-- what does the whole ribbon bar look like? :jumping:

Those "Hermannschwerter" seem to have been meant for one of the 1920s veterans' group awards... very very weird, and still found sometimes on WW2 bars.

The Ehrenlegion device was ACTUALLY a miniature for a lapel chain-- see the suspension loop on top? Cool!

That Treudienst is probably good. Lots and lots of them are completely... dirt color. Badly finished, and all the silver evaporated away. So... that one the idiot took a "pretty" one off to replace with an ugly one? Idiot!!! :speechless:

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Yes, the other one was less ugly, as far as I remember. What an idiot ... :speechless: such a nice and rare bar, "played with" on its boring part for no use ... :ninja:

Thanks :cheers: for the BZ4 device-- what does the whole ribbon bar look like? :jumping:

The first one might be interresting for comparing both rolls, as soon as the BZL4 gets complete. I don't think many got both, may be identyfiable? Please don't do it yet, as soon as I'm in training this I should take a look for my own stuff. ;)

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Ah, it was a 40. Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. How....

completely NOT rare. :speechless::violent:

Attempting to FIX this may only make it worse-- chances are, if you TRIED to unbend the tabs to put a correct 40 device back on there, the old brittle tabs on the metal backing will break right off on the 4th time they are bent. (Do not ask me HOW I know this. :unsure::rolleyes: ) I suppose you could try to pop the stupid device off by prying it with something, and then wiggle a correct repair device in through the hole in the ribbon, but that risks bending the backing, tearing the ribbon, and leaving a loose device, too.

So I think this will have to remain as a permanent reminder of Idiot 2007. :angry:

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