Guest Rick Research Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 The M1970 10 years medal was actually completely coal-black as found. Being out of my depth in DDR awards, I presumed it was a real silver late 1950s one, only to come home and flip through Bartel & Karpinski's 1979 opus and find out it is LATER than the M1959 5 years medal. But what really took my eye was the RIBBON BAR. I am used to tawdry flashed metal backed, clear plastic front, colored PAPER "ribbons." Not only is this a neat and hefty ribbon bar frame, with a thin plastic cover, but the CLOTH ribbons are woven together in one piece. That's right-- TWO ribbons, in ONE! B & K mention the ribbon shade changing circa 1970 which will be more apparent from the unfaded reverses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 The reverses, showing the deeper green of the 1959-69 5 years medal's ribbon compared to the "Key lime pie" green of the M1970.Don't know whether the sliding "lock" on the ctach fell off the 10 years medal or was omitted-- certainly the prongs on back of the 5 years medal for attaching to the pin assembly are more substantial on the earlier award.From the prongs on the back of the ribbon bar, it looks like there are probably two individual metal ribbon backings there... but only the one weave for BOTH ribbons. This is actually a GOOD idea, dating back to the First World War with common German ribbon combinations-- and would have made far more sense with the paper ones. Those always seem to be sliding around underneath each other. It's kind of hard to judge shade exactly under theplastic cover, but I think the ribbon bar is more "Key lime" color-- suggesting a circa 1970 bar. Were cloth ribbons common then, and the paper ones came afterwards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 (edited) Rick,You can use a number of things to date this ribbon bar. First the used of the heavy brass bar with the large ends that stick up above the surface of the bar. Second is the barrel type catch which was used on the early ribbon bars. And last, but certainly not the least, the woven cloth ribbons themselves. The bar is probably from sometime in the 50s to the 60s. Memory deserts me for the moment as to when the barrel catch was discontinued and the change to paper ribbons took place. I'll see if I can dig out that info from my files tomorrow. There were two other major changes to the type of pin latch used on ribbon bars and medals which help with approximate dates. Even when the cloth ribbon bars were discontinued you will find they were still made for Generals. Eventually though even they went to paper ribbon bars.You can date the bronze medal and the ribbon bar to the same time period due to the use of the barrel latch on both. The latch on the silver award is hard to make out but looks like the second type used.Regards,Gordon Edited February 3, 2008 by Gordon Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedytop Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 Hi Rick,what you show in Post 1 does not fit.The ribbon bar is for Bartel 142b and 143b; your medal in Bronze is correct, 143b, but the medal in Silver is 142c. And I want to show you the different bars, the oldest on top:RegardsUwe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 I do not know what you mean by "142..." and "143...." That is not how the 1979 Bartel & Karpinski "Auszeichnungen" book is organized.I see you have an identical ribbon bar...but WHICH "top" -- the backs as you posted above or or the fronts correct side up as here: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 All I have for DDR awards is Bartel's and Karpinski's 1979:This foolishly/stupidly alphabetizes everything under each award's complete full name as in"Medaille f?r Treue Dienste in den bewaffneten Organen des Ministerium des Innern"... in the middle of ALL OTHER "Medaille f?r Treue Dienste" so that ALL "in den"s come before "in der" rather than Ministry/Service FIRST. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 An interesting post. Though I must admit that I am getting more and more confused the longer it goes on. But maybe that is just DDR phaleristics?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Well, I'm OK with what Bartel and Karpinski have to say (10 years silver medal M1970, 5 years bronze medal M1959), but Uwe has lost me completely with cryptic reference numbers from some OTHER book that mean nothing to me, and the upside down AND right side up scan. Usually Uwe enlightens me instantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedytop Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Hi Rick,I accept your rotation of my picture .Now the oldest is down and the multiple bars are in the correct ranking, OK.Please note the three different needle systems, that is important.The oldest needle system is from the old medal for 5 years of service, with the III below the coat of arms.And now, for collecting DDR decorations everyone needs:Bartel, Frank, DDR Spezialkatalog 1949-1990, Band 1, Staatliche Auszeichnungen, 3rd edition, Berlin, 2003You can very often find the numbers from this catalogue on ebay.de.The medal for ten years (silver), must have the same obverse as the medal for 5 years (bronze), shown in your Post 1, the coat of arms without the state emblem, than it fits to the double-bar.In the Bartel catalogue there is a seperate number for the bar:143 x) Bandkombination f?r Nr. 142 b und 143 b, 47mm, komplette Spange.RegardsUwe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Ah. NOW clear. I don't actually "collect" DDR... it was the ribbon bar that me. Are there OTHER common one piece woven cloth ribbon bars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedytop Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Yes!For Bartel No. 135 and No. 151 .151 x) Bandkombination f?r Nr. 135 und 151, 47mm, komplette Spange135 Medaille f?r treue Dienste in der Kasernierten Volkspolizei151 Medaille f?r treue Dienste in der Nationalen Volksarmee in BronzeRegardsUwe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 (edited) Rick,Uwe has shown you a "common" combination of medals for a "cloth" ribbon bar. I think your question was if there were more single woven cloth ribbon bar for common medals. The answer to that question is yes and no. There are single cloth woven ribbon bars for medals that are fairly common to find but the cloth ribbons themselves are not that common and if they come cased will be with an early issues of that particular medal. Here are two "common" cased medals with their cloth ribbon bars that are not "commonly" found in this configuration. (Gotta love the English language!) The cloth ribbon bar for the KVP medal was obviously worn and shows you why they opted to cover them with plastic at a later date. Edited February 5, 2008 by Gordon Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Here is another way you can find DDR cloth ribbon bars worn. A combination of cloth and paper. While "commonly" worn in this fashion, these combination ribbon bars are certainly not common and are much sought after.Regards,Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedytop Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Hi Gordon,I think, Rick want to see such ribbon combinations .Rick: "...dating back to the First World War with common German ribbon combinations..."Ohhh sorry, it is not DDR, it is not common, and it is not WWI .RegardsUwe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Yes, I would like to see some "combined" DDR ribbon bars-- in a new thread would be best, since this was started just as VoPo. But it is interesting that this very logical and neat style for common combinations of ribbons survived from Imperial to Nazi to Communist Germany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedytop Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 (edited) Rick, these two ribbon combinations are the only combined bars I know from the DDR!A new thread could only be good for the ribbon combination in Post 16 .Uwe Edited February 6, 2008 by speedytop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehrentitle Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 I have a VOPO one piece cloth ribbon bar with two ribbons. I'll try to dig it out tonight. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehrentitle Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 I just checked, it's the same VOPO ribbon combination as in Rick's first post. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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