Motorhead Posted September 25, 2005 Share Posted September 25, 2005 For the friends of the imperial iron-These are two different makers,both not really rare but "FR" is harder to get.I start with my 1st class "FR"Obverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted September 25, 2005 Author Share Posted September 25, 2005 Reverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted September 25, 2005 Author Share Posted September 25, 2005 Maker Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted September 25, 2005 Author Share Posted September 25, 2005 Here's my "Fr" Nr.1Obverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted September 25, 2005 Author Share Posted September 25, 2005 Reverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted September 25, 2005 Author Share Posted September 25, 2005 Maker Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted September 25, 2005 Author Share Posted September 25, 2005 And "Fr" Nr.2Obverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted September 25, 2005 Author Share Posted September 25, 2005 Reverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted September 25, 2005 Author Share Posted September 25, 2005 Maker Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 I have heard opinions over the last XX years... Now the big question... Who WAS Fr? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Gebr. Friedländer from Berlin did supply the GOK... and no other makers with "Fr...", at least not in mid 1916. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OTTER76 Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 (edited) Fr + nummer could be "Franz Reischauer Oberstein", just guessing... Edited January 22, 2013 by OTTER76 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Guessing is what caused these bullsh** "maker list" I'm fighting for years now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Well, Guessing is a first step, an important one...as long as it stays as such... it only becomes dangerous when lists come out based on guessing. There are a few lists out there..... at some stage someone matched existing names to the Letters on EKs and came up with a list of often "long shot possibles" that somehow has been spread all over... I rememeber when FR was identified as Frank and Reif... I called up the company to ask if they had ever made EKs in WW1... the old guy on the phone said "NO! Definately not!" On top of that, Frank and Reif are a Prägewerk.... they just do metal stamping, no jeweller work etc. etc... I think the Fr is correct.... but think FR is still unclear.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 (edited) I think the Fr is correct.... but think FR is still unclear.... Is there any serious reason they should be two different firms? If you compare to (officially made!) Prussian orders, you'll find tons of different marks - for just about two dozen (Berlin) firms! Edited January 25, 2013 by saschaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I dont think anyone doubte Fr as Friedländer, but I have now heard 3 suggestions for FR. I dont claim to be any expert on makers marks, so I am all ears... Best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn R Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I remember fr being identified as Frank and Reif. Long time ago. For some reason I was once told that KAG was Klein and Quenzer. So many lists out there and a lot of guess work in the past falls into being accepted fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Okay, I'm asking the other way round. We agree the "FR" crosses are award types, right? What time period do you think they are from? If I had to guess, I'd say ca. 1915/1916, but as I'm not having one (better: some) in a complete group, I don't know. What do you think? Or (better:) does anyone have one with a documented group? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Is there any serious reason they should be two different firms? If you compare to (officially made!) Prussian orders, you'll find tons of different marks - for just about two dozen (Berlin) firms! How many firms outside of Berlin? Scharfenberg has 8 Firms outside of Berlin already in the 2nd Quartal of 1916. How many could there have been in the 3rd Quartal? Here is a question.... if Fr and FR are the same firm, surely there would be a crossover point when you find both the Fr and FR stamps on the same cross type? It is unlikely that with the core in the cross in post one ALL had FR, and ALL with the core in post 2 had Fr.... Best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted January 26, 2013 Author Share Posted January 26, 2013 And what about "Fr W" ?? Micha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 (edited) Scharfenberg has 8 Firms outside of Berlin already in the 2nd Quartal of 1916. How many could there have been in the 3rd Quartal? Possibly some, but it doesn't matter, as these non-Berlin makers would not have delivered the EK1 until April 1917 - and I'm totally sure "Fr." as well as "FR" crosses do pre-date this change. And what about "Fr W" ?? Is this a maker mark "W" or rather a quality controll mark? If not the latter, I'd guess they helped each other out... but hard to know for sure! Edited January 26, 2013 by saschaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Possibly some, but it doesn't matter, as these non-Berlin makers would not have delivered the EK1 until April 1917 - Hi Sascha, I have no reason to doubt this, but how do we know this? Best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 (edited) Have you read another Scharffenberg article than I did? The GOK ordered the 1st classes from Berlin firms only, which annoyed the makers from other cities, e. g. Hanau, and this didn't change until the responsibility was wrested from the GOK and given to the EZA in April 1917. So, although we don't have any official document that gives each abbreviation a complete firm name, we still can assume with a probability bordering on certainty - for the 1st half of WW1's EK 1 - that "S-W" stands for Sy & Wagner, "G" for Godet and "WS" für Joh. Wagner & Sohn, while we can be dead sure that a "FR" marked cross, if delivered officially and pre-April 1917, cannot be made by Frank & Reif in Stuttgart. This is so few facts we have at the moment in this regards it's making me sad they are ignored for some baseless theories. Edited January 26, 2013 by saschaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Have you read another Scharffenberg article than I did? The GOK ordered the 1st classes from Berlin firms only, which annoyed the makers from other cities, e. g. Hanau, and this didn't change until the responsibility was wrested from the GOK and given to the EZA in April 1917. So, although we don't have any official document that gives each abbreviation a complete firm name, we still can assume with a probability bordering on certainty - for the 1st half of WW1's EK 1 - that "S-W" stands for Sy & Wagner, "G" for Godet and "WS" für Joh. Wagner & Sohn, while we can be dead sure that a "FR" marked cross, if delivered officially and pre-April 1917, cannot be made by Frank & Reif in Stuttgart. This is so few facts we have at the moment in this regards it's making me sad they are ignored for some baseless theories. Hi, The search for facts usually starts off by theories and brainstorming :-), we have to start somewhere. If you dont discuss and wait for facts to fall from heaven... we have a long wait ;-) FR is DEFINATELY not Frank and reif, as I posted, i alled the firm and they informed me they did NOT make EKs. Best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 (edited) The search for facts usually starts off by theories and brainstorming :-), Or in archive works. I find it a great work Dr. Scharffenberg has undertaken, and am curious how much new facts will be in Dr. Wernitz' book. Who knows, maybe all (or most of the) puzzle parts were missing today? Hopefully at least some... FR is DEFINATELY not Frank and reif, as I posted, i alled the firm and they informed me they did NOT make EKs. Well... if the guy on the phone told you, it must be true. Or he didn't know. Or he didn't care. What I want to say - an old worker from a factory, who - as I assume - wasn't even there back than (in WW1!), is not a proof. Archive documents are. At least we agree and have the same conclusion... =) Edited January 26, 2013 by saschaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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