My first court mounting project - Pakistan group

[Brian Wolfe]

Hello Everyone,

For a long time now I have wanted to try my hand at court mounting a group of medals. My first project is a group of medals named to 1220812 NK. TALIB HUSSAIN R.P.A.. The group included the Pakistan Independence Medal, 1939-45 Star, the Burma Star and the India Service Medal. These were all named. The 1939-45 Medal was missing when I purchased them. There were some naming problems with this group and it was felt over on the SAGONGS web site that this was probably due to them being self-named during the period (not long after the fact for the e$cam). You can check out the discussion on SAGONGS if you are interested but the general consensus was that this was a genuine group issued to the recipient named. As far as I am concerned that is good enough for this collector.

If anyone is intetrested in the method of mounting, I used three pieces of buckram glued together for the "base" covered with black broad cloth. Buckram is a stiff material used for curtain backing and to stiffen things like collars etc. You can get it where they sell curtain and fabric materials. I used the black material as it covers the exposed ends of the white buckram that would show after the medals were mounted. I didn't like the idea of using black marker and the black material also hides any spaces between the ribbons, if there were any that would show. A white line of material exposed between the medal ribbons would look terrible. You can buy black buchram but I couldn't find any in our area. The exta material of the black cloth also makes the mount a bit stiffer. Once the medals were mounted I sewed them down using "Invisable" thread made of nylon. Sewing through four layers of cloth was not very easy but I think easier than trying to shove a needle through cardboard or plastic.

The back is covered with a piece of red felt. I didn't try to affix a pin device as the mount will reside in my medals cabinet and, of course, never be worn. As I said this was my first attempt at court mounting and I hope you like it.

Cheers

Brian

[Brian Wolfe]

Here is the back, not much to look at but I thought I'd show it anyway.

Cheers

Brian

[David Gregory]

Brian,

Very nicely done. It encourages me to attempt the same thing with a group in my collection.

David

[Ed_Haynes]

Nicely done, Brian. Shabash!

[Brian Wolfe]

Thanks David and Ed.

Cheers

Brian

[James Hoard]

Brian,

This looks fantastic.

However, I have one question. Why does the Pakistan Independence Medal come ahead of all the rest? Pakistan became a republic in 1956. Therefore, and one would imagine that any stipulation that this medal be worn ahead of the campaign medals would have come some time after this date. Presumably when the Pakistan republican orders and decorations were created.

[Ed_Haynes]

The independence medal was worn first, from Pakistan's independence in 1947.

[hipnos]

Hello Everyone,

For a long time now I have wanted to try my hand at court mounting a group of medals. My first project is a group of medals named to 1220812 NK. TALIB HUSSAIN R.P.A.. The group included the Pakistan Independence Medal, 1939-45 Star, the Burma Star and the India Service Medal. These were all named. The 1939-45 Medal was missing when I purchased them. There were some naming problems with this group and it was felt over on the SAGONGS web site that this was probably due to them being self-named during the period (not long after the fact for the e$cam). You can check out the discussion on SAGONGS if you are interested but the general consensus was that this was a genuine group issued to the recipient named. As far as I am concerned that is good enough for this collector.

If anyone is intetrested in the method of mounting, I used three pieces of buckram glued together for the "base" covered with black broad cloth. Buckram is a stiff material used for curtain backing and to stiffen things like collars etc. You can get it where they sell curtain and fabric materials. I used the black material as it covers the exposed ends of the white buckram that would show after the medals were mounted. I didn't like the idea of using black marker and the black material also hides any spaces between the ribbons, if there were any that would show. A white line of material exposed between the medal ribbons would look terrible. You can buy black buchram but I couldn't find any in our area. The exta material of the black cloth also makes the mount a bit stiffer. Once the medals were mounted I sewed them down using "Invisable" thread made of nylon. Sewing through four layers of cloth was not very easy but I think easier than trying to shove a needle through cardboard or plastic.

The back is covered with a piece of red felt. I didn't try to affix a pin device as the mount will reside in my medals cabinet and, of course, never be worn. As I said this was my first attempt at court mounting and I hope you like it.

Cheers

Brian

Here you have a makeshift bar (as is..) named to hav. Rashid Ahmed, 16 Punjab Rifles...regards

Miguel

PS/ It seems that the campaign stars are added later...obviusly, there are no space for this pair...

[hipnos]

When I say makeshit...I weight my words....

The reverse

Miguel

[Brian Wolfe]

Hi Miguel,

Looks like this fellow mounted his medals to the best of his financial abilities. Still, I am sure he wore them with pride.

Cheers

Brian

[hipnos]

Hi Miguel,

Looks like this fellow mounted his medals to the best of his financial abilities. Still, I am sure he wore them with pride.

Cheers

Brian

That?s for sure!!!

Miguel

[Ed_Haynes]

There are many do-it-yourself Pakistani mountings, as there are many do-it-yourself Pakistani naming jobs, and all help to confuse the complex and sometimes disturbing picture of post-Independcence Pakistani "groups". I have seen such "groups" being assembled in Rawalpindi, as a single named Pakistan Medal was "augmented", quite randomly by medals extracted from surrounding sacks. And then a good touch of the sandpaper post-mounting made it into a "aged group". Be very, very careful!

Indian groups, named, even WWII, are safer, but (strangely?) harder to find.

A couple of Pakistani groups that live with me in which I hold (some) faith:

383012 Recruit Abdul Ghafur, 16th Punjab Regiment

1- The General Service Medal, 1947 - KASHMIR 1948

2- The Pakistan Independence Medal, 1947 - 383012 RECT ABDUL GHAFUR 16. PB R (as is unfortunately usual, the Independence Medal is the sole named medal in the group)

3- The Pakistan Republic Commemorative Medal

4- United Arab Emirates, 1976 Armed Forces Amalgamation Medal

5- Abu Dhabi, Defence Forces Service Medal

An interesting group, in that it demonstrates service -- as something more than a recruit, to be sure -- on loan to the Abu Dhabi and the United Arab Emirates, ca. 1976. A nice, unusual, if somewhat tattered group. Were it not so tattered, however, I might doubt its authenticity!

[Ed_Haynes]

And

O. NO. 630129 COOK U. BAKSH

1- General Service Medal: Kacch 1965

2- War Star 1965

3- War Star 1971

4- Campaign Medal 1965

5- Campaign Medal 1971

6- Quaid-i-Azam Centennial

7- 1400 Hijra Medal

8- Oman, Peace Medal

Only the Istar-i-Herb 1385 / War Star 1385 [A.H. = 1965 C.E.] is named, as shown above. Very ragged mount, a tattered tailor's lable on reverse, so probably halal.

[Ed_Haynes]

And (OK, I lied) one more:

PAK/200043 AC2 MOHD SAFDAR. R.P.A.F.

1- General Service Medal: Kashmir 1948

2- Independence Medal

3- 1939-45 Star

4- WWII War Medal

5- Indian Service Medal

Only the Independence Medal is named, as shown above. He must have left by 1956, or there would have been a Republic Medal. Original ragged mounting.

[hipnos]

And

O. NO. 630129 COOK U. BAKSH

1- General Service Medal: Kacch 1965

2- War Star 1965

3- War Star 1971

4- Campaign Medal 1965

5- Campaign Medal 1971

6- Quaid-i-Azam Centennial

7- 1400 Hijra Medal

8- Oman, Peace Medal

Only the Istar-i-Herb 1385 / War Star 1385 [A.H. = 1965 C.E.] is named, as shown above. Very ragged mount, a tattered tailor's lable on reverse, so probably halal.

In My Group (The 16 punjab regiment too!!!)

1.-General service medal Bar Kashmir 1948

2.- Pakistan March 23th. 1956 Commemorative medal

3.-The independence medal: 3834417 HAV(ildar) RASHID AHMED 16 PBR

4.-The India service medal. (Bars Northwest frontier 1937-39 and 1936-37):10379 Sepoy RASHID AHMED 3-16 PUNJAB R

5.- WWII General service star 1939-1945

6.- WWII Burma Star

7.-Service medal 1939-45(Unnamed)

8.- India service medal 1939-45 (Unnamed)

It takes some consistency...Itsn?t??

Regards

Miguel

Edited March 13, 2008 by hipnos

[James Hoard]

Alas, the Pakistan Independence Medal could not have been worn first, from Pakistan's independence in 1947 on several grounds. First and foremost, the medal wasn't instituted until 1950.

[hipnos]

Alas, the Pakistan Independence Medal could not have been worn first, from Pakistan's independence in 1947 on several grounds. First and foremost, the medal wasn't instituted until 1950.

So, Do you mean that my bar is incorrectly mounted???

regards

Miguel

[James Hoard]

No, my question was related to he original posting.

I think in your case it is pretty sure that the individual concerned was alive and serving after 1956!

[Ed_Haynes]

Alas, the Pakistan Independence Medal could not have been worn first, from Pakistan's independence in 1947 on several grounds. First and foremost, the medal wasn't instituted until 1950.

Actually, the medal was, in fact, instituted in principle, when it was decided that there would be a Pakistan medal to parallel the Indian Independence Medal.

But this is

The mounting order is quite corerect.

[James Hoard]

My understanding is that the Indian Independence Medal was also not instituted in 1947 but in 1948.

Nonetheless, whenever the decision to create a medal, the fact is that it did not exist in 1947 and thus could not have possibly been worn from that date.

As far as I can see we are discussing the order of wear presented by the original poster. May I therefore ask why you have flagged "off topic"?

[Brian Wolfe]

Hello Everyone,

I know this will probably show my igorance but it is my understanding that many of the medals in my mount were issed well after the fact, especially the WW II medals. That being the case and the soldier was now a member of the Pakistan military would that not mean the the British and India Independence medals would, in fact, be foreign medals in Pakistan? I would think this alone would dictate that they would be worn after the Pakistan Independence Medal. Please set me straight on this assumption.

Cheers

Brian

[Ed_Haynes]

Brian, your group, order of wearing, and mounting is fine. As I said before, in a more professional venue, shabash! Ed

[Brian Wolfe]

Brian, your group, order of wearing, and mounting is fine. As I said before, in a more professional venue, shabash! Ed

Thanks Ed, I know I can be a pain in the ... and I worry things to death.

Cheers

Brian

[Ed_Haynes]

Brian, you are never a pain. When someone wishes to LEARN, it is a joy. Nice group, nicely dressed-up. Treat him well. Wish there were some chance of research.

[James Hoard]

Hi Brian,

I think one can be more or less certain that the mounting is fine and correct in the case of the Pakistan group post 1956. Pakistan then ceased to be a "dominion" and instituted a whole scheme of its own republican orders and decorations. Until then, Commonwealth decorations were not "foreign decorations". They were decorations bestowed by the King (and later Queen) of Pakistan.

To illustrate this further, until 1956 Pakistan was still using the British honours system. Appointments were being made on the "recommendation of His/Her Majesty's Pakistan Ministers". Examples of these for the period 1947-1956 may be found by searching the archive editions of the London Gazette http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/

My original question was posed because there did not seem to be any evidence, from the medals presented, that the individual was in Pakistan service post 1956, or was even alive after that date. The last medal in the group is the Pakistan Independence Medal which was instituted in 1950 [see Medal Yearbook 1999, p 272].

I would be perfectly happy to accept that members of the Pakistan military were wearing a medal from 1947, that was not instituted for another three years (1950), before all other British medals. However, I would much prefer that anyone making such a suggestion presented a source or evidence.

Cheers,

James