Super Grampa! The Beamter Who Wasn't/Wounded Noncombatant 4 War Veteran

[Guest Rick Research]

I've worn a hole in my rug pacing back and forth over this guy. Years and years and years, and I can't FIND him.

Unfortunately, there is absolutely nothing written on this, and it's not really that great a photograph, with bad lighting and many developing flaws.

His Beamten shoulder boards are too unclear to tell much. Twisted braided cords, with two rosettes and a double bar of V braid at each shoulder end indicating a War's Duration appointment.

UNFORTUNATELY--and this is the truly maddening part-- he was NOT a Beamter in his younger days!!!!!!

[Ulsterman]

...any chance he was originally in the navy?

That "Paris" clasp is a little unusual to army units-and there is a China Noncom medal there.

[Guest Rick Research]

And how do I know that?

L@@K at his medal bar (be not distracted by his 1914 NONCOMBATANT Iron Cross and 1918 Black Wound Badge !!!

1) Prussian Red Eagle Order 4th Class

2) Prussian Crown Order 4th Class (this was a very unusual combination before 1900-- or is it a 3rd ???

3) Prussian XXV Years Service Cross. And how do I know that it is an XXV and not an XX? Because he is wearing it BACKWARDS, so that "..XV" shows in the center. This is the key to all the confusion!!!!

4) 1870/71 War Medal with bar "Paris"

5) 1866 War Cross

6) 1900/1901 China Campaign Medal (OK, OK, he wasn't there... it's a stay at home steel)

7) 1897 Centenary Medal

8) Bavarian Order of Saint Michael : ??? Merit Cross with Crown (only from 1910 on???) or 4th Class with Crown, or 3rd Class? Chaos! Confusion!

9) Württemberg Friedrich Order-Knight 2nd Class

Now: this is WEIRD. Before 1920, ONLY line combatant branch officers and medical officers received the XXV Years Service Cross. Beamten and NCOs were authorized for it just as the war started in 1914, but none were handed out to them until AFTER the war.

If it was AFTER the war, and Grampa had his photo taken out in the back garden wearing his medals... why would he have mounted a 1920 XXV but NOT his 1914 noncombatant Iron Cross?

This HAS to be a wartime 1918 photo.

...

of a former career officer,veteran of two 19th century wars... with unusual and SHOULD BE unique decorations, having left active duty as a MAJOR/OBERSTLEUTNANT, only to return from retirement as some sort of World War administrative official rather than in his old branch of service.

Brain huuuuuuurt!!!!!!!!!

[Komtur]

2) Prussian Crown Order 4th Class (this was a very unusual combination before 1900 ) or is it a 3rd ???

I would say, no doubt: a 3rd class!

Edited March 24, 2008 by Komtur

[Stogieman]

Hmmmmm, I like that this one still confuses you. Why I remember where this all began!

[dond]

Perhaps it was one of those "after the war" EK2s and this is taken on the day of awarding with it positioned in his button hole.

[Guest Rick Research]

I'm inclined to think a KO3 too-- which makes his career even STRANGER with the low level Bavarian and Württemberg awards at the end.

I don't think it's a 1920 photo-- for a person of his status, the EK would have come first, and the XXV on discharge.

Why can't I find him in Rank Lists?

[Ulsterman]

VI corps pioneer subaltern?

......recalled to do harbor defenses?

Hmmmm....is there a roll of the Bavarian St. Michaels' Orders out there?

[Wild Card]

Rick Research,

Thank you for posting this picture. Until now, I had never seen absolute evidence of a group (bar or mini chain) of awards going from WWI back to 1866. Over the years, I have seen a few mini chains of this range; but never took any of them seriously. I will at least be more open-minded in the future.

Thanks again,

Wild Card

P.S. I think that your friend looks a bit like Generaloberst

Freiherr Ludwig von Falkenhausen

[Guest Rick Research]

Just a reminder gor those of you who think I have Magic Powers / sold soul to The Enemy--

this-one-still-frustrates-the-bejeezus-out-of-me.

Combatant status EX OFFICER called back for the World War as a LOWER ranking (Rechnungsrat)Beamter auf Kriegsdauer... and wounded while a noncombatant.

AAAAAAIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEAAAAAUUUUGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH

[TacHel]

P.S. I think that your friend looks a bit like Generaloberst

Freiherr Ludwig von Falkenhausen

Man, does he ever! But where's his PLM?

Edited August 23, 2009 by TacHel

[webr55]

The Bavarian Court and State Handbook lists all St. Michael winners – Non-Bavarians only until 1910, however.

Here is the list of possible suspects from 1910 – non-Bavarian officers, Zahlmeister and similar ones (year is “handed out in”):

Merit Cross with Crown:

1909: Zschau, KS Zahlmeister, IR 102

1903: Zeitz, OStVeterinär in FAR4 (Prinzregent)

1897: Kurth, Oberzahlmeister aD, Magdeburg

4th class with Crown:

1909: Dörtenbach, KW Major in 2. Württ. FAR; Peter Eichen, RM aD and Amtsgerichtsrat, Frankfurt/M.

1907: Beyersdorf, Hptm, FAR 16; Dunin v. Przychowski, Maj in IR 95; Neumann, Hptm in IR 95

1906: Wolfgang v. Salmuth, Maj, 10. Division

1904: v. Memerty, Hptm in IR 96; Kurt v. Plüskow, Hptm, 42. Inf-Brig.

1900: Erhard Graf Kalnein, 2. Garde-Ulanen-Reg.

1895: Landwehr-Hptm aD Friedrich Keilholz; Landwehr-Hptm aD Friedrich Schüppe

1893: KP RM aD Graf v. Pückler

1890: KP RM aD v. Katte

1888: KP RM aD v. Döring

[webr55]

And the Beamten:

Merit Cross with Crown:

1910: Grundstedt, Lazarettinspektor, Dieuze

1909: Bergemann, Registrator, Militärkabinett; Hermann Rubow, Geh. Kanzleisekr., Militärkabinett

1908: Jacques, Intend.-Sekr., Int, KP XV. AK; Alexander Kliebsch, Ob.-Intend.-Sekr., Int, KP XVI. AK

1906: Hofrat Petersen, Geh. Registrator, Militärkabinett; Georg Lix, Geh. exped. Sekr.

1905: Nicolaus, Intend.-Sekr., KP. III. AK; Grosse, Rechnungsrat, KP Kriegsmin.; Köbele, KP. Kaserneninsp.; Julius Zöllner, KP Garnison-Verw.-Insp., Saargemünd; Hofrat Sommerkamp, Militärkabinett

1904 Reichelt, Rechnungsrat, KP Gr. Generalstab

1903: Kohrs, Rechnungsrat, KP Gr. Generalstab

1901: Thaa, Lazarettinsp., Metz-Stadt

4th class with Crown:

1909: Herbert Wollmann, Geh. exped. Sekr., Päpstl. Stuhl; Rechnungsrat Albrecht, KP Gr. Generalstab; Intend.-Rat Düvel, Intend. 39. Div.; Hofrat Lemcke, Militärkabinett; Rechnungsrat Blume, KP Kriegsmin.; Rechnungsrat Goetze, KP Ingenieur-Komitee, Festungsoberbauwart

1908 KP Rechnungsrat Krüger, Straßburg, Proviantamt; KP Rechnungsrat Tigör, Metz, Proviantamt; KP Rechnungsrat Heinrich Finke, KP Gr. Generalstab; KP Rechnungsrat Liere, KP Kriegsmin.; KP Rechnungsrat Balk, KP Kriegsmin.; KP Geh. Rechnungsrat Hermann Schliewe, KP Gr. Generalstab; Hofrat Fahm, Militärkabinett; Rechnungsrat Zingler, KP Gr. Generalstab

1907: Rechnungsrat Martini, KP Kriegsmin.; Rechnungsrat Müller, Reichsamt des Innern; Rechnungsrat Seidel, KP Kriegsmin.; Rechnungsrat Rausch, KP Kriegsmin

1906: KP Rechnungsrat Schelle; KP Geh. Rechnungsrat aD Karl, Berlin; KP Rechnungsrat Schröter, Rechnungsrat Metzky; Geh. Rechnungsrat Schuckert

1905: Rechnungsrat Kieselbach, Mainz; Geh. Rechnungsrat Strähler, KP Kriegsmin.; Geh. Rechnungsrat Armand, KP Kriegsmin.; Rechnungsrat Rudolf Wolff, Ordenskommission, Berlin

....

[Guest Rick Research]

Many many thanks. I simply cannot tell if the Bavarian award is enamelled or not, at that angle. The WF3b is quite peculiar, since Knighst 2nd Class peacetime in the military are far more unusual than Knights 1st.

His boards here show he held the rank--if it existed--of "Senior Captain" (Rechnungsrat as a courtesy title to whatever the actual rank was, with that later Third Reich style "Polizei-Meister" boards) AND he has a little herringbone strip at each shoulder seam indicating "for war's duration."

But his XXV seemingly identifies him as a former career Real Officer, retired, and the two Prussian Orders suggest an Oberstleutnant--

so he is two full ranks DOWN here and many many levels of "prestige" below that.

I will try sorting these suspects out with the Orders Almanach and maybe will get lucky in the Prussian Hof und Staats Handbücher.

:cheers:

[webr55]

Third Class (at least remotely possible suspects until 1910)

(Beamten in brackets)

BUT: It is none of these -- I checked them all in the DOA and elsewhere.

1889:

Adolf Röder Frhr. v. Diersburg, KP Oberst zD

1892:

(v. Skopnik, KP Geh. Regierungsrat, Straßburg)

1895:

(Kirschner, Geh. Regierungsrat aD, Berlin)

(Täglichsbeck, KP Oberbaurat aD, Hannover)

Gestefeld, KP Major aD, Polizeihauptmann, Hamburg

Fielitz, KP Wirkl. Geh. Kriegsrat aD, Berlin

1896:

(Ludwig Gundlach, Geh. Regierungsrat, Wilmersdorf )

(Dr. Paul Kollmann, Geh. Oberregierungsrat zD)

1897:

(Dr. Karl Wilhelm v. Meister, Regierungspräsident, Wiesbaden)

1898:

(Dr. v. Michels, Geh. Regierungsrat, Straßburg)

Friedrich Goetze, Geh. Rechnungsrat aD, Görlitz

1900:

v. Morgen, KP Oberst, Kdr IR 15

Starck, Frhr. v., KP Major zD

Tjard Schwarz, Geh. Marine-Oberbaurat, Schiffbau-Ressortdirektor, Kiel

1902:

v. Beckedorff, KP Hptm dR

(Leo Franken, Kais. Oberregierungsrat, Wiesbaden)

(Sperber, Geh. Rechnungsrat aD, Weimar)

(Hasenpatt, Geh. Kanzleirat, KP Kriegsmin.)

1903:

(Steinmeister, Geh. Rechnungsrat aD, Steglitz)

1905:

Egmont v. Websky, Major, KP Generalstab, VI. AK

Franzelius, Geh. Hofrat, Ausw. Amt, Berlin

Brünig, Wirkl. Geh. Kriegsrat, Militärintendant, KP XI. AK

1906:

Karl Graf v. Alten-Linsingen, Maj dL, Hannover

(Jahn, Vortragender Rat, Reichsschatzamt)

(Hintze, Geh. Rechnungsrat, Reichsschatzamt)

(Gustav Stolterfoth, KP Geh. Baurat aD)

(Seele, Geh. Hofrat, Ausw. Amt)

(Dr.-Ing. Wilhelm v. Siemens, Geh. Regierungsrat, Berlin)

(Beuckenberg, Baurat, Dortmund)

v. Friedeburg, KP Oberstlt, Kais. Flügeladjutant

1907:

v. Cramon, Oberstlt., beauftragt mit der Führung Garde-Kürass.-Reg.

Rettig, Geh. Kanzleirat, KP Kriegsmin.

1908:

Dr. Nietner, KP Oberstabsarzt aD, Professor in Berlin

Boy-Ed, Kais. Dt. Korvettenkapitän

Hintze, Geh. Hofrat, Militärkabinett

(Schultz, Regierungs- und Baurat, Kanalamt, Kiel)

1909:

(Theodor Dietrich, Geh. Rechnungsrat, Reichsamt des Innern)

(Jungheim, Geh. Rechnungsrat, Direktor des Reichstags)

Eduard Stemmermann, Oberstlt, Distriktskommandant der Gendarmerie, Karlsruhe

Stolzenburg, Geh. Rechnungsrat, Geh. exped. Sekr., KP Kriegsmin.

(Dr. Alfred Westphal, KP Geh. Regierungsrat aD, Schriftführer des Kyffhäuserbundes)

(Stieme, Geh. Kriegsrat, Justitiar, KP Kriegsmin.)

Arnold, KP Geh. Kriegsrat, Intendant 1. AK

Lemmel, Wirkl. Geh. Kriegsrat, KP Kriegsmin.

Hoene, Rechnungsrat, Geh. Kanzleidirektor, KP Kriegsmin.

Frhr. v. Broich, Major beim Stab Drag-Reg. 7

1910:

v. Lenski, KP Oberstlt, Abt-Kdr, FAR 31

(Ruth, Geh. Hofrat, Ausw. Amt, Berlin)

(Franz Dütting, KP Oberbaurat, Eisenbahnzentralamt, Berlin)

(Laury, Oberregierungsrat, KP Eisenbahndirektion, Berlin)

Edited September 9, 2009 by webr55

[webr55]

None of the first list (non-Beamten) either.

None of the Merit Cross Beamten.

Edited September 9, 2009 by webr55

[Guest Rick Research]

The combination screams Prussian Kriegsministerium to me. GOT to be in there.

So far, while some remain unknown-- not in Ranglisten and not in the Orders Almanac

my New Prime Suspect working through all of them is

Rechnungsrat exped. Sekretär in the Prussian Great General Staff Fritz Zingler, born in 1848:

As of 1908 he had-- KO4, Pr IX, 1870, 1866, China, 1897, BM4mKr, WF3b. The latter two are the key pair and I find nobody else with it. Presumably he'd have advanced up the grades of his Prussian Orders after 1908. Maybe KO3 1916 as 50th anniversary present?

I can NOT explain the XXV. The only thing I can think of is that he has slipped it into the same correct space where his IX was and just hasn't remounted the whole bar to stick in the EK2w. Although Beamten and career NCOs were authorized to receive the XXV just before the Great War started, I've neveer seen any evidence that anyone of those categories actually GOT one until AFTER the war.

[webr55]

YES!!!

That looks very good to me! Many of the others I checked had WF3a, but none WF3b. That must be him --- somehow Fritz Zingler exchanged his IX for an XXV and did not mount his EK2w.

[webr55]

Rechnungsrat Fritz Zingler is listed in the Berlin Adressbuch until 1926, living in Bugenhagenstr. 3.

Edited September 9, 2009 by webr55

[Ulsterman]

any chance he is Rudolf Zingler, Chief of staff for the 2nd AK?

No-looking at the ranklists-no way.

Still, interesting magazine on-line.

http://perweb.firat.edu.tr/personel/yayinlar/fua_241/241_26862.pdf

[Guest Rick Research]

The Bavarian award roll to Prussians did it-- we have a winnah! He must have been Fritz Zingler. Could never have found him without you, from what I have.

Siekmann's Beamten Pocket Book 1902 shows only Orders-- zero

And yet, having FLUNG myself upon the mercy of the Orders List holders...

Kanzleirat Zingler received KO4 18 January 1902

Expedierender Sekretär Zingler received RAO4 27 February 1912

and

...

[webr55]

@Ulsterman:

Interesting -- but that is General d. Inf. zD Rudolf VON Zingler (1839-1920)-

Edited September 9, 2009 by webr55

[Guest Rick Research]

Thanks to Glenn's slogging through the Militäwochenblätter transcribing and indexing all names

and because I HAVE all of the 1915 issues (very much unindexed )

Edition of 15 April 1915, Column 1693

TADAAAAAAAA !!!!!!

KO3 in rank aD on staff of the Home Establishment of the Great General Stff in Berlin.

Now the mystery that remains is...

how did this 65+ year old retiree retread get himself WOUNDED?

Results-through-Global-Research-Cyborg-Collective! :cheers:

[webr55]

Wow!

Couldn't have been a bomb on Berlin, could it....

Maybe a trip to the front?

Here is his entry in the Bavarian Court and State Handbook:

[Guest Rick Research]

I don't think any Allied aircraft reached that far in the First War.

We shall surely find more. Together we can!!!! :cheers: