Please, can you confirm the award of Prussian Black Eagle + Red Eagle ?

[lilo]

Hello All,

I would like to have confirmed - if this is of no much trouble to you - the award of the following Orders:

- Prussia, Black Eagle

- Prussia, Red Eagle

to the Prince Arthur Frederick Patrick Albert of Connaught 1883-1938 - (N.B. : He is the son of the more famous and 3^rd son of Queen Victoria, Field Marshal Arthur William Patrick Albert, Duke of Connaught and Strathearn 1850-1942).

I know that Arthur Frederick Patrick Albert Prince of Connaught 1883-1938 was Duke of Saxony, Prince of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, with the style of His Royal Highness (H.R.H. Prince Arthur of Connaught) [heir to the Duchy of Connaught, but preceded his father in death] [German titles discontinued 17 July 1917]. During WW1 He held the rank of Major in the British Army.

Last, His father the Duke of Connaught (1850-1942) was the uncle of the Prussian Kaiser Wilhelm II and as such received for sure the 2 Orders in question.

Awaiting to hear from you again

Thanks in advance

Best Regards

Lilo

Edited March 28, 2008 by lilo

[Wild Card]

Hello lilo,

According to the 1912 Prussian Rank List, the father had the collar to the Order of the Black Eagle, the collar and grand commander?s cross to the Royal Hohenzollern Order and the Pour le Merite (!). The son received the Order of the Black Eagle.

I do not see anything regarding Red Eagle awards to either as of that time; but do seem to recall seeing (I think that it was) a first class set attributed to one of them quite recently.

Regards,

Wild Card

[Stijn David]

Hello,

Iff a black eagle order was attributed a Red Eagle order (1 e class set) was automaticly bestowed upon the recipient. That R.A.O. was however not recorded in the offcial lists.

So, iff your person was awarded the black eagle order he did get the R.A.O. but no trace of the last wil be found in the official lists.

Cordial greetings,

[lilo]

Hello both Wild Card and Stijn David,

Many thanks for your very prompt and useful confirmation : I have much appreciated your informations !

Wild Card

Can you please let me know the exact date of award of the Black Eagle for both Connaught (father + son) ?

David some precisations, please:

1) I assume that 'R.A.O.' is the Red Eagle Order, ISN'T ?

2) So, all the persons that received the Black Eagle Order automatically received the Red Eagle order (1st class) but this last Order was not recorded in the official lists, Have I well understood ??

3) When the Black Eagle was awarded, does the recipient received the 1st class of the Red Eagle in the SAME DATE (of the Black Eagle) or was it issued in a different time (may be at a later date??) ?

Again many thanks for your help

All the Best

Lilo

Edited March 29, 2008 by lilo

[Wild Card]

Hello lilo,

According to "Die Ketten Des Preussischen Hoohen Ordens vom Schwarzen Adler 1701-1918", by Peter Sauerwald and Erast Schubersky, the father received his collar on 18 January 1872. My notes reflect that the son received his set on 27 February 1905, but I cannot find the source of this information.

I hope that this is helpful.

Regards,

Wild Card

[Dave Danner]

Hello lilo,

According to "Die Ketten Des Preussischen Hoohen Ordens vom Schwarzen Adler 1701-1918", by Peter Sauerwald and Erast Schubersky, the father received his collar on 18 January 1872. My notes reflect that the son received his set on 27 February 1905, but I cannot find the source of this information.

I hope that this is helpful.

Regards,

Wild Card

According to the Prussian Ordensliste, the father received the Black Eagle with Chain on 17 February 1872. The only 18 January recipient was Adolf Georg F?rst zu Schaumburg-Lippe. The father received his Pour le Merite on 27 November 1882.

[lilo]

Hi All

and thanks for the help given.

Is it too much to ask if another British recipient : - Admiral Rosslyn Erskine Erskine-Wemyss, 1st Baron Wester Wemyss (1864 -1933) - did or Not received the Prussian Order of Red Eagle ?

Thanks again very much

All the Best

Lilo

Edited March 29, 2008 by lilo

[Stijn David]

Hello,

1) R.A.O = Roter Adler Orden = Red Eagle order (my mistake, yes, yes i should have given the direct transliteration )

2) Yes, correct, but i have to add that that was the case when the new Black eagle holder did not have the R.A.O. 1 e class already. Iff he had it no second award was made offcoarse

3) Can't answer that, as the R.A.O. was not entered there isn't a date known.

Cordial greetings,

[Dave Danner]

One clarification/correction: a member of the Order of the Black Eagle automatically held the Grand Cross of the Order of the Red Eagle, not the 1st Class. The Grand Cross badge was to be worn arond the neck rather than on a sash.

[Wild Card]

Hello lilo,

I am sorry, but I am not finding any awards to Admiral Rosslyn Erskine Erskine-Wemyss in any of my sources. That is not to say that he did not receive anything. Personally, having reviewed a brief synopsis of his career, I would be surprised if he had anything higher than an RAO third class, unless he held a position, which I did not see, that merited it.

Regards,

Wild Card

[Komtur]

One clarification/correction: a member of the Order of the Black Eagle automatically held the Grand Cross of the Order of the Red Eagle, not the 1st Class. The Grand Cross badge was to be worn arond the neck rather than on a sash.

To confirm this clarification a picture of Reichskanzler Bernhard F?rst von B?low. You can see the Grand Cross of the Order of the Red Eagle with oak leaves on his neck and the star of the Order of the Black Eagle on his breast. On his sash must be the cross of the Order of the Black Eagle.

With regards, Komtur.

[lilo]

Hi All,

Many thanks to All for the great help given !

I have just found the photo below attached. It is that of Sir Rudolf Anton Carl von Slatin (1857-1932).

It looks like to wear some Prussian/German Order (??).

Is it possible to verify if He received the Black Eagle, Red Eagle and which other Imperial German award did He received ?

Many Thanks

All the Best

Lilo

Edited March 30, 2008 by lilo

[Wild Card]

Hello lilo,

Well, you have picked quite a soldier this time; von Slatin certainly had an unusual career and fascinating life. Once again though, I do not find him on the Black Eagle list and do not have anything that confirms a Red Eagle, or any other Prussian award. Keep in mind that I am not saying that he did not get them, just that my limited resources do not indicate any.

If it is any help, I would point out that one of his stars does look quite a bit like a commander?s star to the Saxe-Weimar Order of the White Falcon.

Regards,

Wild Card

Edited March 30, 2008 by Wild Card

[lilo]

Hi Wild Card

Many thanks for your comments about Slatin and for your guess about the Saxe-Weimar Order.

As I'm trying to reconstruite the full medal entitlement of Slatin, it should be VERY USEFUL for me if you can post the complete photo of Slatin but in the Highest resolution you have.

If you need of my email adrress because it is too large to post, please don't esitate to let me know.

Awaiting to hear from you again

All the Best

Lilo

[Wild Card]

Hello lilo,

I am a bit confused, maybe I do not understand your request. The picture that I posted is actually a slightly magnified and cropped copy of your picture with an arrow superimposed. As you can see, some contrast and clarity of detail was lost in the magnification.

Regards,

Wild Card

[lilo]

Hi Wild Card

Ok, I thought that you were in posses of another photo of Slatin from which I could take some more particulars on the Orders He wear. From this my last request.

Now I understand that is the same photo I posted before, so no need to send it again.

Thanks again for your help and patience : both very much appreciated.

All the Best

Lilo

[lilo]

edited

Edited March 31, 2008 by lilo

[Wild Card]

[Dave Danner]

The upper of the two stars on the right breast appears to be an Austro-Hungarian Order of Franz Josef.

The lowest breast star on the left breast is for the Commander 1st Class of the Friedrichs-Orden from the Kingdom of W?rttemberg. Slatin received this in 1899.

[Dave Danner]

...

If it is any help, I would point out that one of his stars does look quite a bit like a commander?s star to the Saxe-Weimar Order of the White Falcon.

Regards,

Wild Card

You are correct sir. Sir Slatin-Pascha (as he is identified in the Staatshandbuch) received the Commander with Star of the House Order of Vigilance or the White Falcon in 1897.

The Mecklenburg-schwerinsches Staatshandbuch doesn't list out decorations, but I believe the star next to the White Falcon and above the Friedrichs-Orden is for the Greifen-Orden.

[lilo]

Hello Dave,

Thank you very much for your information : this put forward my search work well above my hope !

1) Question :

I'm sorry but as German Imperial Orders are not my area I must ask you a precisation : Was the 'Greifen-Orden' that belonging to the Grand Duchy of Mecklenburg-Schwerin ?

To recapitulate, and to see if I have well understood the Orders in the below attached photo, they are :

1) Turkish, Order of Mejidie;

2) Imperial Austria, Order of Franz Joseph;

3) Turkish, Order of Osmanieh;

4) Italy, Order of St. Maurizio & Lazzaro;

5) Danimark, Dannebrog;

6) ???

7) Mecklenburg-Schwerin, Greifen-Orden;

8) W?rttemberg, Friedrichs-Orden;

9) Saxe-Weimar, Order of the White Falcon;

10) British, St. Michael & St. George.

Am I correct or not ??

Please let me know

All the Best

Lilo

Edited March 31, 2008 by lilo

[Great Dane]

And if you don't already know it, he received the Dannebrog Commander 1. class on 29. July 1902.

/Mike

[Piramida]

Hello Lilo

I believe that 6 is the Order of St. Gregory the Great from the Vatican.

all the best

Ivan

[lilo]

Hello Lilo

I believe that 6 is the Order of St. Gregory the Great from the Vatican.

all the best

Ivan

Hello Mike / Ivan

thank you both for your information / guess !

Ivan,

do you retain that the SHAPE of Both the 'silver star' (that is under the enamelled Cross) and of the same enamelled Cross are a little different from the usual of what you have identified as the Vatican Order ?

In other words I think that although at a first seeing of the breast Star in exame it could appear that of the Order of St. Gregory, indeed there are little differences that you the same can see confronting the star worn by Slatin in the photo and that I attached below, isn't it ?? What do you think ??

All the Best

Lilo

Edited April 1, 2008 by lilo

[W McSwiggan]

About the RAO 1st Class versus Grand Cross awards to SAO recipients ? some clarification seems to be in order.

These orders are of almost equal antiquity ? the SAO?s foundation is in 1701 and the RAO in 1705. I have no statute reference for the SAO but it would appear that this order (as the premier Prussian Hausorden) was stable from the outset. I say this cautiously because I do not know if the collar was a later addition.

The orders were linked as of 12 June 1792. This linkage entitled the SAO recipient to the RAO. This same statute made the RAO a prerequisite for future SAO bestowal.

The Grand Cross of the RAO was established in 1861 and this became the SAO entitlement. Hence ? prior to 1861, the 1st class of the RAO was, in fact the grade linked to the SAO.

I base these statements on Hamelman?s ?Of Red Eagles and Royal Crowns? ? his English language translation of the governing statutes of the Prussian Red Eagle and Crown orders.