Pretty Rare Crown Order

[Stogieman]

Commanders Cross with swords am ring.... but is it real, or is it altered? You decide.

[Stogieman]

The close ups are too fuzzy to really tell. Has what appears to be a correct Wagner mark on the bottom, but I can't see a silver content mark.... bronze gilt at the commander's level?

[RAO]

Another question is, there was such a avarded at all? I think no.

Regards Mike

[Komtur]

If the size of 62 mm given by the seller is correct, it is a 1st class on a neck ribbon (there really was the possibility to wear 1st classes on the neck to the so called "small uniform").

As described by Sauerwald (OMM 72/1998) there are fakes of the KO 1st class on the marked in silver gild. You can distinguish them (besides other features) by the letters in GOTT (left original, right copy):

Edited May 23, 2008 by Komtur

[Komtur]

You need some fantasy, but I?m afraid we?ve got no bargain in that case

left original (gold), right the cross on ebay

Edited May 23, 2008 by Komtur

[RAO]

Also in the 1st class I am not avarded. ;o)

Regards Mike

[Stogieman]

I think his pictures are just fuzzy enough to allow some uninitiated person to think it's real. I think the swords do not look like anything I have seen before on a PCO

[VtwinVince]

With those pictures, it could be anything. Also, I don't like the way the edges of this cross are finished.

[Ed_Haynes]

OK, I am feeling incredibly stupid, so be gentle with me: How difficult is it to say what is a "fake" and what is not when there was no central manufacturing (or even quality control, especially as the war went on, and after the war when the issuing States were quite extinct?) of these awards? There was no Royal Mint, no Mondovor. You were awarded the order, you went off to some local jeweler and bought it. (Like French awards?) So what is real, what is fake? Micro-dissection seems odd as any maker could, I presume, make it pretty much as they wished and in whatever form they could sell? And did this change over time? It may be a question of what is "period"? But what period? Pre-1918 or post-1918? What is "real" and what isn't? Trying to learn here, but VERY confused.

[saschaw]

Well, but who should have gone to a jeweler if noone was ever awarded that class? From what I understand, this is one of these very common fakes produced in the 70s and 80s, isn't it? A. Thies had many in auction in the last years, offered as fakes by the way.

[Komtur]

OK, I am feeling incredibly stupid, so be gentle with me: How difficult is it to say what is a "fake" and what is not when there was no central manufacturing (or even quality control, especially as the war went on, and after the war when the issuing States were quite extinct?) of these awards? There was no Royal Mint, no Mondovor. You were awarded the order, you went off to some local jeweler and bought it. (Like French awards?) So what is real, what is fake? Micro-dissection seems odd as any maker could, I presume, make it pretty much as they wished and in whatever form they could sell? And did this change over time? It may be a question of what is "period"? But what period? Pre-1918 or post-1918? What is "real" and what isn't? Trying to learn here, but VERY confused.

You are right that there was a continous decline in quality in the war years and especially after 1918 for private produced items. Also until 1918 there was indeed no central manufacturing. But for the higher classes you will only find 2 or 3 "Hofjuweliere" allowed producing these orders in a very consistent way of best quality, sometimes with a kind af special "style" (best example is Godet). You are not right, if you guess, there were no quality control: the "Generalordenskommission" was responsible for the question of "Probem??igkeit" (means no difference in comparison to a model). I am sure, the above mentioned fakes of the 1970ies wouldn?t pass this control. These copies reached the marked suddenly in a few years (no problem to find lots of them in auction catalogues of Graf Klenau). They have typical signs like the letters shown above and they are today widely accepted as copies by serious dealers as Andreas Thies or the Dorotheum. A last typical sign of these fakes is, that most of them are very rare combinations like the item on Ebay (for X and X on the ring in the 1st class there is no known recipient) or the combinations of REO and PCO (one order with enamel ribbon of the other between the arms of the cross).

It is not to difficult to distinguish fine items of the time and these copies of the 70ies. Sometimes you get a problem with private produced orders after 1918. If they were produced for the recipient or for collectors is often a question of belief.

Best regards, Komtur.

1978 by Graf Klenau sold as original (gold!)

2004 by Dorotheum/Vienna sold as copy (gold!)

Edited May 24, 2008 by Komtur

[RAO]

Hi Komtur,

a good job. ;o)

[Stogieman]

Hi Ed, despite the lack of a central mint like Mondvor, the design of an order was very rigidly controlled by the individual state's orders ministry. Once a design had been submitted (you should see some of the many designs submitted for the Albert Order of Saxony when originally started!!) the actual manufacture would be rigidly controlled to pretty exact specifications by the house-approved jewelers only. There is some variation by maker... but most of these were exactingly documented by Jorg Nimmergut in his large volumes on German decorations. A very, very expensive set of books, but well worth the investment... IMO.

[Ed_Haynes]

Thanks, all. I assume that when the relevant states ceased to exist at the end of the Great War, such "quality control" also ended? Or did it even survive to the end of the war?

[Stogieman]

Interesting question. At that point I doubt anyone stepped up and made new dies for obsolete orders. But rather probably continued to use any/all existing tooling as needed. Some of the royal orders continued to be awarded by ruling families surviving even until present day!

[Komtur]

Hi Ed, despite the lack of a central mint like Mondvor, the design of an order was very rigidly controlled by the individual state's orders ministry. Once a design had been submitted (you should see some of the many designs submitted for the Albert Order of Saxony when originally started!!) the actual manufacture would be rigidly controlled to pretty exact specifications by the house-approved jewelers only. There is some variation by maker... but most of these were exactingly documented by Jorg Nimmergut in his large volumes on German decorations. A very, very expensive set of books, but well worth the investment... IMO.

I agree with you completely, but unfortunately some of the copies found their way to the Nimmergut books. Especially pictures of the discussed series of PCO fakes you will find there (2242, 2280, 2289, 2292, 2295 ...). In the supplement volume of 2004 you find a short statement to most of these numbers in volume II: "Sauerwald stuft das Exemplar im Handbuch als moderne Nachfertigung ein" (Sauerwald estimates the item in the book as modern copy). Nimmergut must have good reasons to notice this "estimation" in his supplement volume.

Best regards, Komtur.

[Stogieman]

Hmmm, Thanks Komtur, I had not seen that supplement or Volume II.

I may have to get a new set of these.

[Komtur]

Thanks, all. I assume that when the relevant states ceased to exist at the end of the Great War, such "quality control" also ended? Or did it even survive to the end of the war?

As I mentioned before, that question is a real problem and often there will be no answer for a single order. No question, there were private purchased orders, wich hadn?t pass the states orders ministry controll before 1918 as well as the orders made for recipients after 1918. That?s what I ment, when I said before, there originality is sometimes a "question of belief". As I remember this was discussed here for the PlM, because there was a real need of replacements because of the proud "all day wearing" of this order up to 1945 and in some cases later.

Unfortunately this uncertainty is used by unserious dealers to sell certain copies to us.

Edited May 24, 2008 by Komtur

[Komtur]

Hmmm, Thanks Komtur, I had not seen that supplement or Volume II.

I may have to get a new set of these.

There is a small misunderstanding: it exists only one supplement volume (No V). With volume II I ment the second one (with Prussia) of the first set of four.

Regards, Komtur.

[Komtur]

Sold for 915 Euro.

Nimmergut (OEK) price for a 1st class PCO 2nd modell without X and without X on the ring 1800 Euro

[medalnet]

Sold for 915 Euro.

Nimmergut (OEK) price for a 1st class PCO 2nd modell without X and without X on the ring 1800 Euro

Gee wiz, one can't trust even the Nimmergut catalogue anymore

[WNickel]

Hi,

I think this looks good...

[medalnet]

Good point. Real ones look indeed like this one:

[Wild Card]

Okay guys, unless I missed the joke, now I am really confused.

We have two examples (posts #23 & #24) which supposedly are ?real?;

but the first thing that I saw when I compared the two is that the swords

on #22 go right over left, while those on #23 go left over right.

Can both be correct? I dunno maybe it?s the jet lag.........

[Wild Card]

Okay guys, unless I missed the joke, now I am really confused.

We have two examples (posts #23 & #24) which supposedly are ?real?;

but the first thing that I saw when I compared the two is that the swords

on #22 go right over left, while those on #23 go left over right.

Can both be correct? I dunno maybe it?s the jet lag.........

Sorry, I meant "...two examples (posts #22 & #23)..."

Yup, jet lag.