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On 18/09/2017 at 16:43, Dario_Cro said:

Some information about rank and uniform 

20170918_221715.jpg

Only one branch of service in the Austro-Hungarian Armed Forces had these chevrons and bear-claws on the lower sleeve: 

The Royal Hungarian Gendarmerie (Magyar Királyi Csendőrség.)  This Gendarme-NCO's rank is "Járőrmester."  The chevrons represent years of service.  The thin stripes represent 3 years of service, and the thick stripe represents "Long Service" which I believe is either 5 or 7 years.  Simi.

Edited by Simius Rex
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I am under the impression that the Hungarian regiments of the k.u.k. army wore the 'bear claw' on the cuff of their respective jackets. The bear claw was either silver or gold and matched the buttons on their jackets.

The soldier in the photo appears to have braid along the bottom edge of his collar, and if so, this would indicate that he is a Feldwebel (Hungarian - Tizedes).   

NCOs who voluntarily increased their length of service wore a gold chevron 6 cm wide on the left cuff of their jacket. They then added thinner chevrons (approx 1.3 cm) for 3, 6 and 9 years of service respectively.

The Royal Hungarian Gendarmerie had simple plain cuffs (no adornments). 

Regards,

Ian

Edited by Ian
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19 hours ago, Ian said:

I am under the impression that the Hungarian regiments of the k.u.k. army wore the 'bear claw' on the cuff of their respective jackets. The bear claw was either silver or gold and matched the buttons on their jackets.

The soldier in the photo appears to have braid along the bottom edge of his collar, and if so, this would indicate that he is a Feldwebel (Hungarian - Tizedes).   

NCOs who voluntarily increased their length of service wore a gold chevron 6 cm wide on the left cuff of their jacket. They then added thinner chevrons (approx 1.3 cm) for 3, 6 and 9 years of service respectively.

The Royal Hungarian Gendarmerie had simple plain cuffs (no adornments). 

Regards,

Ian

You are correct about two things, however... the bear claw was worn by Hungarian regiments and that the chevrons represent years of service. The thin stripes represent 3 years of service each, and the thick stripe represents "Long Service" which was either 5 years or 7 years.

My information is that only the Gendarmerie's enlisted men and NCOs wore these service stripes.  I have posted a group photo of Gendarmerie personnel wearing the Gendarmerie Qualification Badge for Patrol Leaders below which irrefutably confirms that these guys are Gendarmerie.  Note that all of their uniforms have the service stripes that you maintained the Gendarmerie did not have.  I have also posted a photo of a Gendarmerie Patrol Leader's Badge for reference below.     

Also, the man in the photo is not a tizedes.  A tizedes is a corporal and did not have braid on his collar.   If the man in the photo is a soldier in the Honved, his rank would be Master Sergeant or "Főtörzsőrmester". 

Technically, the Hungarian soldiers were part the Royal Hungarian Honvéd and they fell under the purview of the Hungarian Minister of Defense in Budapest who reported to the Hungarian Prime Minister.  The Hungarian Gendarmerie, however, fell under the purview of both the Defense Ministry and the Interior Ministry. 

If you have any further questions or doubts about this subject, here is a link to the most authoritative research book about the Royal Hungarian Gendarmerie ever published.  In addition to the history of the Gendarmerie, it goes into excruciating detail about every element of the Gendarmerie's uniforms. (This book begins with a tribute to all the persons who contributed research information to the book.)  I used Google-Translate to read this material.

http://mek.oszk.hu/16900/16969/16969.pdf

 

        

 

Csendőr Járőrjelvény.jpg

Csendőrségi Rangrendszer.png

Patrol Leader Csendőrs.jpg

Edited by Simius Rex
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Simius . You are wrong , into the Kaiserlich und Koeniglich Army existed Hungarian Infantry Regiments Indeed . They wear the bear paws and the yellow black braid on the tight fitting Hungarian trousers . The men into these units were mostly Hungarian ethnics , 

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16 hours ago, Bayern said:

Simius . You are wrong , into the Kaiserlich und Koeniglich Army existed Hungarian Infantry Regiments Indeed . They wear the bear paws and the yellow black braid on the tight fitting Hungarian trousers . The men into these units were mostly Hungarian ethnics , 

The Hungarian regiments from 1867 to 1918 were a part of the Royal Hungarian Honved which was a completely separate entity.  Their uniforms were in the Hungarian style, as you indicate, complete with bear-claws and fancy knots on their trousers.  There is a reason the Empire was called the Imperial and the Royal Monarchy.  Hungarians in 1867 no longer wanted to be under Austrian rule. They were granted their separate parliament, separate government institutions, and separate HONVED.  Franz Josef was no longer their Kaiser, but rather he was crowned their King. This whole situation began with the Austrian's decisive  defeat by the Prussians in 1866.  Hungarian leaders took advantage of the weakened Austrian position and gave an ultimatum to the Austrians to achieve some measure of independence. As a result, the Kingdom of Hungary was born and along with it, the Royal Hungarian Honved  !! Simi.  

Edited by Simius Rex
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Simius,

I have no issue with you saying I am wrong, but you are ignoring historical fact.  There were regiments within the k.u.k. Army that were designated as 'Hungarian' and wore the uniforms as described by Bayern.  I think you have confused the k.u. Honved with the regiments of the k.u.k. army. 

Regiments designated as ‘Hungarian’ within the common or k.u.k. Army were as follows:

IR 2, IR 5, IR 6, IR 12, IR 16, IR 19, IR 23, IR 25, IR 26 IR 29, IR 31, IR 32, IR 33, IR 34, IR 37, IR 38, IR 39, IR 43, IR 44, IR 46, IR 48, IR 50, IR 51, IR 52, IR 53, IR 60, IR 62, IR 63, IR 64, IR 65, IR 66, IR 68 IR 69, IR 70, IR 71, IR 72, IR 76, IR 78, IR 79, IR 82,  IR 83, IR 85, IR 86, IR 96, & IR 101.

Regarding the Tizesedes, you are correct, and that was my error. but I stand by my original post regarding that the soldier has braid around the edge of his collar and he is the Hungarian equivalent of a Feldwedel – Törzsörmester.

The fact remains that the k.u. Gendarmerie did not wear the ‘bear claw’ on their lower sleeves. So, I stand by my original comment that the Feldwebel in the photo is a common or k.u.k. Regiment soldier and not a k.u. Gendarmerie. 

When I wrote “The Royal Hungarian Gendarmerie had simple plain cuffs (no adornments)“    I was referring to the ‘bear claw’ and not the service chevrons. I could have been clearer, and again my bad.

Regards,

Ian

 

Edited by Ian
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15 hours ago, Ian said:

 

Simius,

I have no issue with you saying I am wrong, but you are ignoring historical fact.  There were regiments within the k.u.k. Army that were designated as 'Hungarian' and wore the uniforms as described by Bayern.  I think you have confused the k.u. Honved with the regiments of the k.u.k. army. 

Regiments designated as ‘Hungarian’ within the common or k.u.k. Army were as follows:

IR 2, IR 5, IR 6, IR 12, IR 16, IR 19, IR 23, IR 25, IR 26 IR 29, IR 31, IR 32, IR 33, IR 34, IR 37, IR 38, IR 39, IR 43, IR 44, IR 46, IR 48, IR 50, IR 51, IR 52, IR 53, IR 60, IR 62, IR 63, IR 64, IR 65, IR 66, IR 68 IR 69, IR 70, IR 71, IR 72, IR 76, IR 78, IR 79, IR 82,  IR 83, IR 85, IR 86, IR 96, & IR 101.

Regarding the Tizesedes, you are correct, and that was my error. but I stand by my original post regarding that the soldier has braid around the edge of his collar and he is the Hungarian equivalent of a Feldwedel – Törzsörmester.

The fact remains that the k.u. Gendarmerie did not wear the ‘bear claw’ on their lower sleeves. So, I stand by my original comment that the Feldwebel in the photo is a common or k.u.k. Regiment soldier and not a k.u. Gendarmerie. 

When I wrote “The Royal Hungarian Gendarmerie had simple plain cuffs (no adornments)“    I was referring to the ‘bear claw’ and not the service chevrons. I could have been clearer, and again my bad.

Regards,

Ian

 

Three stars with braid on the parolin in the Honved is a Főtörzsőrmester according to my rank chart.  A törzsőrmester has only two stars.  I will try to make PDF copies this weekennd of select pages from a very interesting book in Hungarian that describes the rapid "de-Hungarianisation" of the Austrian Army from 1867 onward as a result of directives issued by the new Hungarian parliament.  The Hungarian parliament wanted no Hungarian citizens serving under Austrian commanders and the Honved was formed with amazing speed as a consequence.  Simi.      

Edited by Simius Rex
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Simius . The 32 Honved Infantry Regiments weared a distinctive uniform, different of that of the Hungarian Regiments of the Common Army . In 1914 the peacetime uniform comprised a double breasted blue jacket with red hungarian knots braided  on the cuffs and rear of the collar which was also contoured with red cord . Madder red . buttons were yellow metal ,the tight fitting Hungarian trouser were light blue and with Hungarian knots braided in red cord on the front of the legs . In Pike Grey Field Uniform the Honved Infantry wear Slate Grey collar patches for all the Regiments and slate grey knots on the trousers . All the Hungarian Common Regiments named by Ian weared collar patches in regimental colour and yellow black braid on trousers .

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Simius , Dont try please to enforce the History . Its true that the Hungarian Parliament intented to retire of the KuK Army all Hungarians but to no avail .apart not all the Hungarians were from the 1848 Party . I remember tou that the first Commander of the Honved was Archduke Joseph Karl Ludwig 1831 1905 ,son of the Archduke Joseph the Palatin of Hungary . and it was the Commander until his death in 1905. Remember also that the Honved dont have a proper General Corps, the Colonels of the Honved once nominated as General changed their tshako plate to the KuK eagle . altough he continued to wear the Hungarian General Uniform . The Generals of the KuK army commanded to the Honved weared also the so called Maria Theresa uniform for hungarian generals

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12 hours ago, Ian said:

There were regiments within the k.u.k. Army that were designated as 'Hungarian' and wore the uniforms as described by Bayern.  I think you have confused the k.u. Honved with the regiments of the k.u.k. army.

I believe you are right. I have confused these two, so my apologies for that.  This is what happenes when one tries to translate German and Hungarian text by Google.  I get translations into English that look like a random word-salad and then I have to figure out what it means.  Sorry. Simi.   

p.s. This link below is an example of the kinds of articles I am translating into English by Google. It takes quite a bit of time to figure out what the translated text is trying to actually say. (Some of the time, I have to "guess" what the text really says.)

https://nagyhaboru.blog.hu/2014/08/14/az_osztrak-magyar_hadsereg_egyenruhai_1914-ben 

Edited by Simius Rex
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Simius , By a chance the book that you said to have is Kiralyiert Es Hazaert ? I bought it in Budapest during April 1993 . In Hungarian but with a German summary and explication of each plate. with the help of a Lexicon and time I learned basic hungarian 

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On 24/07/2020 at 21:22, Bayern said:

Simius , By a chance the book that you said to have is Kiralyiert Es Hazaert ? I bought it in Budapest during April 1993 . In Hungarian but with a German summary and explication of each plate. with the help of a Lexicon and time I learned basic hungarian 

The main reference publication I am using for the Hungarian Gendarmerie can now be found online.  This is helpful because I can copy & paste text into a translation program.  It is a compilation of research works by several scholars including Dr. Paradi and Dr. Szakaly and is entitled: "Magyar csendőrség-történeti tanulmányok."  I will need to look for and buy "Kiralyiert Es Hazaert" as you suggested and add it to my library.

If you have learned basic Hungarian and you didn't grow-up speaking Hungarian, then you must be a genius at languages because Hungarian is one of the most difficult languages on the planet, in my opinion.  Simi.   

Edited by Simius Rex
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Simi . Certainly the Hungarian is a difficult language and my basic Hungarian is limited to the Military Field . Regards Bayern

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  • 1 month later...

Tony many thanks for share with us ! the Karls bluse is notable. complete with rank star and blue facing strip on the collar. a question ,the peakless cap have some letters and numbers on the left side ?

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Thanks Ian.

Bayern, the lagerkappe does not have any numbers on the side sadly. I put it on the tunic for effect as they are not a pair that came together. the cap is made of the nettle material and in strong sunlight has a very yellow/green tint.  The inside is nicely lined and it has an oilskin sweatband. 

The pictures are not so good so don't really do it justice. I will post some clearer ones.

The karlsbluse has the Himmel-blau stripe making it either IR 3,4 Austrian or IR 19,32 Hungarian. No markers to suggest which it is but it came from Austria so my guess leans to 3rd or 4th IR.

 

cheers Tony

 

 

 

 

 

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Many Thanks Tony ! for a while i thought in a Cavalry uniform , Austrian Hussars by the blue collar stripe but the absence of the shoulder cord gold and black over the left shoulder of the Bluse signals Infantry .I asked about the lagermutze cavalry type because cavalrymen carried on the left side the Letters D or H followed By a number . 

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