Very strange Hessen bar

[dond]

The reverse for Rick.

[Guest Rick Research]

:love: ANOTHER ex-career enlistment NCO called back up for war service as a Feldwebelleutnant.

I don't think I've EVER seen the peacetime General Decorations to NCOs mounted EXCEPT in this thread! :cheers:

[rujab]

Hi Roman

This is the another one from the fam.August K?hn

from Frankfurt-Fechenheim

mfg

Rudi

[rujab]

Part 2

[Roman Slivin]

:cheers:

[Roman Slivin]

:cheers:

[Roman Slivin]

OK. Having been sent the description of this date bar from the huge (and insanely expensive) Nimmergut multi-volume set on German awards:

1) This "23.1.1916" bar was awarded to ONLY <b>29</b> actual living persons <u>all</u> in <b>Hessian Infantry Regiment 118 </b>(others went on the unit's flags). This date was the 125th jubilee of the regiment's creation.

Three non commissioned officers, named by Nimmergut, received this as the sole enlisted recipients of the bar. 26 officers (not named) received the bar.

A regimental history of IR 118 would--hopefully--contain the names of ALL the recipients, for a process of elimination to identify the owner.

That being said, the bar does not match the example shown by Nimmergut-- yours is too LONG, and appears to have been affixed to the medal bar with little nails or something.

This is where it gets TRICKY.

With so FEW made, and no "benchmark" for what is and is not the 1916 issued model-- would we have any reason to think that a recipient alive after 1938 could not--or might even have HAD to-- have a jeweler hand make an example to replace a lost or broken original?

But how to PROVE that? <img src="http://gmic.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/banger.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="banger.gif" />

<!--coloro:#ff0000--><span style="color:#ff0000"><!--/coloro-->The ONLY way would be to find a list of all the recipients and match up this actual group.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

I like the fact that it appears to be a "cheapo" upgrade, sticking the Hindenburg Cross in without bothering to pay for the correct sized extended metal backing plate.

But the combination is VERY odd.

The pre-war Hessian Merit Medal, and Hessian XV Years Service Cross indicate an NCO-- but the ?M3K indicates an officer.

The ONLY way this combination could be correct is

1) if Hesse continued to award military long service awards DURING the war (as Bavaria and Wurttemberg did)--

I have NO idea whether that was the case or not.

2) this NCO would have had to reach either Feldwebelleutnant or something like Zahlmeister rank to have received the Austrian award, AND

3) could not have had doubled war time totaling "XXV" years of service by discharge in 1920-- so never got the Prussian officers' long service cross.

That is a VERY narrow, very specific, and "easily" eliminated category of recipients

The complete roster of those entitled to this bar is shown in the IR 118 WW1 regimental history.

After all, ANYBODY could have added a dodgy date bar to ANY Hessian General Decoration "for Bravery" at ANY time.

What HAS to be done is to verify all the OTHER awards to determine whether it was even POSSIBLE for any of the recipients to have gotten the date bar on this medal bar. All regular and dR/dL officers can be eliminated immediately!!!!

The three career NCOs who received the date bar can, with certainty, be eliminated as "suspects" since NONE of them could or would have been of officer status by 1918 to have earned that Austrian award.

It HAS to--if not Frankensteined onto an otherwise original bar--have been awarded to an "officer" in the unit, <i>of Warrant or administrative status barely equal to a Leutnant.</i>

Find that regimental histroy!!!! src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/beer.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="beer.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The full list of the awarded officers:

1. M. Lockemann

2. MaD Deuβen

3. H. Cellmann

4. H. v. Cappeln

5. H. Fendel

6. ObldR R<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc--><!--fonto:Arial--><span style="font-family:Arial"><!--/fonto--><!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->?cker

7. ObldR Bieber

8. Lt Hoβfeld

9. LtdR Reuling

10. Lt Stein

11. Lt D<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc--><!--fonto:Arial--><span style="font-family:Arial"><!--/fonto--><!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->?hle

12. Lt M. M<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc--><!--fonto:Arial--><span style="font-family:Arial"><!--/fonto--><!--sizeo:2--><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->?ller

13. LtdR Heiland

14. LtdR Schmidt

15. Lt R?nnberg

16. LtdR Wennesheimer

17. LtdR Lichtenberger

18. LtdR Jordan

19. LtdR H?pp

20. LtdR Balz

21. LtdR Henn

22. LtdL Lingens

23. LtdR P. Schlamp

24. LtdR <b>Kratz</b> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="cheers.gif" />

25. Oberst M?nter

26. Obstl. Ffeiherr v. Bibra

Edited October 29, 2009 by Ulsterman
delete java texts

[Josef Rietveld]

Rick,

Many thanks for your help!

I already start to search for history Hessian Infantry Regiment 118.

I can assume that swords to ?M3K specify that ?M3K has been received after 13.12.1916.

If the owner bar became the officer after 1916 to it should be then more than 45 years....

It is true that the swords on the trifolds had been invented in December 1916 But the ?M3K was NEVER issued to germans WITH swords. As sometimes seen with turkish orders germans later added the swords on their own initiative.

2) this NCO would have had to reach either Feldwebelleutnant or something like Zahlmeister rank to have received the Austrian award, AND

I think this person must have been a officer and not a highranking NCO as the ?M3K was limited to officers only.

regards

josef

[Guest Rick Research]

These are the only "suspects" for this bar-- as far as I can tell, ALIVE in 1934/35 and MIGHT have been a former career NCO promoted to Leutnant during the war:

((( I find NO officers with these names: 1. M. Lockemann 2. MaD Deuβen ))

9. LtdR Reuling

13. LtdR Heiland

14. LtdR Schmidt

17. LtdR Lichtenberger

18. LtdR Jordan

19. LtdR H?pp

20. LtdR Balz

21. LtdR Henn

24. LtdR Kratz

None of the other officers are possible.

[Roman Slivin]

I think that it Kratz. :unsure:

[Guest Rick Research]

I think you are correct.

But you know Research Gnomes-- we like to eliminate all the suspects down to only 1 ! :cheeky:

[Roman Slivin]

I think you are correct.

But you know Research Gnomes-- we like to eliminate all the suspects down to only 1 !

Then I doubt that that it Kratz. :cheeky:

[Roman Slivin]

LtdR Kratz

[Guest Rick Research]

Oho-- now look at THIS-- 2 of 29 here at GMIC!

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=40454

[HeikoGrusdat]

could someone give me the names of the 3 nco`s listed by Nimmergut please...........

[Ulsterman]

Outstanding thread!!!

[Berlinerbummel]

I found this medal bar during a search for a Hessen Long Service Medal on a parade bar. Boy, where do I begin? Do I start with the German swords on the Austrian medal / ribbon? How about the NCO long service award on the same medal bar with a medal - Tapferkeitskreuz - awarded only to officers? By the way, the jump-ring on the bravery medal is much too small.

The Spange zum 125 jährigen Regimentsjubiläum was awarded to 200 "older" officers and only 9 NCO's.

Draw your own conclusions my friends, but I hope that not too much money changed hands with this transaction!

Edited November 30, 2012 by Berlinerbummel

[Sergio]

I found this medal bar during a search for a Hessen Long Service Medal on a parade bar. Boy, where do I begin? Do I start with the German swords on the Austrian medal / ribbon? How about the NCO long service award on the same medal bar with a medal - Tapferkeitskreuz - awarded only to officers? By the way, the jump-ring on the bravery medal is much too small.

The Spange zum 125 jährigen Regimentsjubiläum was awarded to 200 "older" officers and only 9 NCO's.

Draw your own conclusions my friends, but I hope that not too much money changed hands with this transaction!

:wacky: :wacky:

[Ulsterman]

I would wager it is original. The bars' construction my not be text proof, but it is not typically fake either. Also, the story it tells strikes true.

[Berlinerbummel]

I will say one thing, if the bar is a post-war "fake," the guy sure went to a lot of trouble to make one rough-looking medal bar!

Stories, unfortunately, are often just that. For example a number of familiy military items came down to me - WWI and WWII - from both sides of my familly. Some of the medals were attributed to my maternal grandfather when all the time they belonged to my dad's father! It just took a little resarch to straighten things out - and a Militaer Pass and Soldbuch.

[Sergio]

I will say one thing, if the bar is a post-war "fake," the guy sure went to a lot of trouble to make one rough-looking medal bar!

Stories, unfortunately, are often just that. For example a number of familiy military items came down to me - WWI and WWII - from both sides of my familly. Some of the medals were attributed to my maternal grandfather when all the time they belonged to my dad's father! It just took a little resarch to straighten things out - and a Militaer Pass and Soldbuch.

In my opinion, you don't understand the problem you try to argue

[rujab]

this bar is not a fake ,that is good

Rudi

[Ulsterman]

Berlinerbrummel- by "story" I mean military career story, not the provenance.