RAO single mounted, 3. Klasse (Gold) mit Krone und Schwertern

[Claudio]

Dear all:

Herewith I would like to show you a fine piece being on sale on the latest Zeige's auction. According to the description of this article the cross is made of GOLD and the crown "Silber vergoldet"...

What do you think? Andreas comment on that is required, since he's such a RAO's lover...

Btw, beautiful website you have Andreas! Very informative!!

Ciao,

Claudio

Picture of the front:

[Claudio]

Pic of the reverse:

[joe campbell]

heavy breathing.....

man, is that beautiful!

can anyone give me ziege's web address?

thanks!

joe

[medalnet]

Thank you very much for your kind remark.

I am sorry to say, but I would have to see this particular piece life to say anything conclusive.

Edited October 19, 2005 by medalnet

[Claudio]

It's really impressive, Joe, but I don't know if such crosses should be completely in Gold, or just the medallion, or the medallion and the swords or also the crown. Only 6 awarded are known according to Andreas, 5 in Gold, pre-war awards bestowed during the Colonial campaigns from 1905 til 1908, and 1 silver gilted awarded to von Richthofen and made by Godet.

Here are the links of the very interesting webpages of Andreas:

http://www.medalnet.net/Rote_Adler_3_Krone_Schwertern.htm

http://www.medalnet.net/Rote_Adler_3.htm

The question is: are the swords really hohlgepr?gt (2 separate stamped pieces and hollow inside) and if it's very likely made of Gold or are one piece and silver gilted? Boh? Could this cross be a post 1918 made RAO? Don't know... Please enlight me.

Here's Zeige's "poor" description:

Roter Adler Orden, Kreuz 3. Klasse mit Schwertern und Krone. Gold emailliert, feine Emaillemalerei des Medaillons, gepr?gte Schwerter, die Krone Silber vergoldet, emailliert und beweglich, an Einzelbandspange.

Thanks again for looking into it!

Ciao,

Claudio

[medalnet]

Just to add to the fact. The Red Eagle Order 3rd class with crown and swords from my web page came from a medal bar of one of the known bearers and would have to be considered as a "Spangenstueck".

[Claudio]

Hi Andreas,

That was clear... you can see from the pictures that it's a silver gilted piece. Godet wasn't so prolific making as other juwellers (like Wagner), was he? Or at least I didn't see so many RAO being offered. Also the arms of the cross seem different (wider at the base with the medallion). But I suppose every maker had his own style, especially considering the hand-painted red eagles.

Ciao,

Claudio

[Guest Rick Research]

It would, of course, have been IMPOSSIBLE to have HAD a "single mounted" RAO 3XmKr since that would have been an Oberstleutnant or Oberst grade recipient... and where is everything ELSE?

I don't think an EK2 mounting "improves" this-- rather, the contrary.

[medalnet]

Maybe a window decoration. Not impossible.

[Claudio]

Rick, Andreas,

I remember about 10 years ago a major Auction House in Hamburg sold a large collection of single mounted medal bars which came from a window of a dealer who had them exposed in his shop before WWII. Many of them were still attached to a board and many of them were Imperial medals. Some of them are in my brother's collection and don't even have the needle on the back. But they look nice.

Of course it's impossible that an officer would have worn it alone. To me as a collector it's fine if I am sure that the medal or order is an original and period made. The mounting is just a decoration. Many veterans also liked to display their medals in framed windows with their ribbons folded in a decorative way.

As far as the medal is ok... no problem for me. And what about the many medal bars which have been torn apart to take away the most prestigious or costly awards?

I am just interested to know if this RAO is a pre-1918 made cross.

Ciao,

Claudio

[Claudio]

Just another example of an "impossible" bar... bought from Niemann, but nevertheless original!

[Claudio]

and again... the funny thing about these mountings is that their needle system seems to be completely time period and look similar to the backing of the medal bars being worn before WWII or even sooner.

[Claudio]

or again...

[Claudio]

and again...

[medalnet]

But see, there you go again, typical Godet made swords on those two Prussian awards. Certainly it makes sense to talk about window or display decorations.

I have a bar myself, that looks kind of akward. And again finest godet made stuff from arround the 1870th. Iron Cross 1870, House Order of Hohenzollern knight with swords, Red Eagle Order 4th class with swords and Order of the Crown 3rd class with swords

Edited October 19, 2005 by medalnet

[HeikoGrusdat]

not every single mounting is impossible... I know many young officers that got their first award in the colonies, often Kamerun and Eastafrica, and of course for Leutnants and Oberleutnants it was a crown order 4th class with swords on war ribbon - just as shown. I have several photos of colonial officers wearing a single medal bar with this award...

Heiko

[Guest Rick Research]

I was not talking about window displays, or collectors who think sticking rare Orders on Iron Cross 2nd Class mountings "improves" their looks-- but that

NO REAL PERSON COULD have a Red Eagle or Crown in THIRD Classes on the combatant ribbon with Xs because such a person would have had to have been career military at a level where NOT having any other awards (XXV Years Service Cross et cetera) would have been IMPOSSIBLE.

4th Classes before 1912 and the creation of the general Colonial Medal for retroactive small campaigns are another matter.

Personally, I would rather display such a rarity on a length of unmounted "EK2" ribbon as if "just out of the case" than on an impossible mounting which just plain looks silly.

[medalnet]

I totally agree. The recipients for the RAO 3 Schw Krone are known and had a lot more decorations then just this one.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Yes, as single mounts very impossible as "it's my only one". Did the Imperial times have salesman displays?

Edited October 20, 2005 by Brian von Etzel

[Stogieman]

Yes, I believe we would have seen quite impressive store displays.... as any good, prosperous merchant would do. I believe that while the "piece" is impossible, the cross would prove to be quite right and quite real.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Yes the cross is quite real. It is every bit the quality of the ones I own. I've never seen the Krone, but it is as I would have expected, quite beautifully wrought.

[Claudio]

Dear all,

When I posted the RAO3kl.krX it never crossed my mind that such a single medal bar would be a possible combination. I was just asking your opinions about the originality of this cross.

My brother collects these single mounted pieces, because they look "cute" and they are great for display purposes.

I hope not have molested the "purist" with this fashon statement of mine... I am Swiss Italian... we like decorative and beautiful stuff!

Ciao,

Claudio

Edited October 20, 2005 by Claudio

[notned]

Hello Gents and wow! what a fine medal! its just beeeeuuuutiful!

I agree with Claudio about having single parade mounts for display, its the best,visually, way to display a medal on its own.

and another tip of the hat to Claudio, with his magnificent collection of single parade mounts! wow! made my jaw just drop! never knew there were single mounts of most of those medals...fantastic stuff!

Cheers gents!

Paul.

[JensF.]

Claudio, that Red Eagle is a dream!!!

[medalnet]

Claudio, that Red Eagle is a dream!!!

...once again, if it is real !!!!