Unknown Arabian Order

[IVB]

Hello!

Here is badge of unknown order from Indus Numismatic Gallery.

[hmfgreifswald]

One of the many different and rar Mogul / Maharadsha awards.

I feel so. But you want more or correct informations, I must look in my books and papers.

Year is writen 1331 that?s the year from 11.12.1912 to 29.11.1913

Sincerely Holger / germany

[Ed_Haynes]

One of the many different and rar Mogul / Maharadsha awards.

I feel so. But you want more or correct informations, I must look in my books and papers.

Year is writen 1331 that?s the year from 11.12.1912 to 29.11.1913

Sincerely Holger / germany

What do you mean "Mogul / Maharadsha"??????????????

Edited August 13, 2008 by Ed_Haynes

[hmfgreifswald]

The little sovereign?s. Ed, do you check in the prince book?

[Ed_Haynes]

No, nothing like this previously known from the Indian "Princes" and it "feels" wrong for them. Could be from a local zamindar, as they produced much stuff, but rarely of this quality. Anything on the reverse? Let me work on the central inscription . . . .

I know a lot of fantasy stuff is being made up in Pakistan now and this particular dealer . . . .

[Guest IMHF]

Hello!

Here is badge of unknown order from Indus Numismatic Gallery.

Does any one know what it says in the middle????

Thank you

Lorenzo

[hmfgreifswald]

So, I mean, it will be a award from Rama the IV. after annex. the islamic Patani region. Thats the ground, it is writen in islamic. So today are different problems in this are. Citezens are like to will be independenc from Thailand. Different groups are made problems in this area. So, I mean.

[hmfgreifswald]

Also the flag of Pattani is red with and green. Award: 2 red flags on top. Center-withe and the circle is green. I?mean, it will be Pattani 80%! *smile*

[Ed_Haynes]

It seems to me we are really "reaching" here and forcing a pseudo-identification where one does not exist. We don't ever know the language of the legend, much less what it says. (No, there is no such language as "Islamic", any more than there is a "Christian" language.)

[oamotme]

Ed,

You are a star - this is, I think, and want to believe, an example of the Noble Saeedee Order of Oman from the time of Sultans Faisal or Taimour - please refer to my OMRS article on this amazingly scarce award - indeed this is the only picture I have seen. The Arabic appears to read "Al Dowla Al Saeed Al Omania" (The Saeedee State of Oman). I believe the Omani flag at this time c.1910 -1920's was plain red. The date bar would correspond with 1910 or thereabouts. I am on leave in UK so have no access to my files on this, thus I am reaching for elusive information which is lodged in the far recesses of my seemingly atrophied brain!

Any chance of its dimensions or a reverse image?

Mabruk!

Of course I could be wrong........

Owain

Edited August 16, 2008 by oamotme

[Ed_Haynes]

Yes, until 1970 the flag was solid red. See: http://flagspot.net/flags/om_musca.html

[IVB]

Two guys with unknown order:

[James Hoard]

Ed,

You are a star - this is, I think, and want to believe, an example of the Noble Saeedee Order of Oman from the time of Sultans Faisal or Taimour - please refer to my OMRS article on this amazingly scarce award - indeed this is the only picture I have seen. The Arabic appears to read "Al Dowla Al Saeed Al Omania" (The Saeedee State of Oman). I believe the Omani flag at this time c.1910 -1920's was plain red. The date bar would correspond with 1910 or thereabouts. I am on leave in UK so have no access to my files on this, thus I am reaching for elusive information which is lodged in the far recesses of my seemingly atrophied brain!

Any chance of its dimensions or a reverse image?

Mabruk!

Of course I could be wrong........

Owain

I just came across this message only now, but the attribution may well be correct.

Here is a small scan (courtecy of Christopher Buyers) from a book by Rudolph Said-Reute, the son of the samous Princess Salme. He received the First Class of he Saidi Order and there is a portrait photograph of him in the book. This small scan was taken from there. Not sure of the exact title, but it could be "Said bin Sultan" (1929).

[oamotme]

Ed, James, et al,

Further to the above I copy an extract from the article I had published in the June 2005 Volume of the OMRS Journal:

"In Muscat itself there is superb museum by the name of Bait Al Zubair (House of Al Zubair). This private museum, opened in February 1998, whilst displaying one of the largest private collections of Omani artefacts, has a key focus of the promotion, preservation and study of the heritage of Oman. The museum was founded by His Excellency Mohammad Al Zubair, Advisor to His Majesty Sultan Qaboos bin Said for Economic Planning Affairs and former President of Sultan Qaboos University, and it is situated in the locale of his family?s former home originally founded by his late father Sheikh Al Zubair bin Ali in 1914. The house built by Sheikh Al Zubair bin Ali was one of the largest in Muscat. It was a gathering place for many people and its doors open to welcome guests around the clock. Statesman, personalities, poets and scholars frequently visited and the house became a part of Muscat?s heritage. Sheikh Al Zubair bin Ali was a distinguished pillar of Omani society who served three former Sultans. He started his career, as a clerk to in Sultan Fasial bin Turki?s reign, became Minister of Justice and Courts under Sultan Taimour bin Turki and finally advisor to Sultan Said bin Taimour.

Illustration No. 3 ? Presentation Certificate

Amongst the various personal artefacts on display belonging to Sheikh Al Zubair bin Ali is a highly decorated presentation certificate to Sheikh Al Zubair bin Ali from Sultan Taimour bin Faisal dated 21 Jumada Al Awal 1341, A.H., corresponding to 9 January 1923, A.D.. A translation of the certificate reads as follows,

?From Taimour Bin Faisal,

This is to certify that the faithful Haj Zubair Bin Ali Bin Juma was appointed by us to be as a friend and companion in the days of our father. He continued to be with us and advised us for our good for a long time until he worked with our father. Even though he stayed in his position until our father died and he is satisfied of his innocence. We let him remain in his position because he was hard working. In 1333 Higri when we first gave our orders to have the Honourable Sa?eedee Order, we granted him the mentioned Order from the First Degree of the Second Level to be as a witness of our satisfaction of his work. No one has ever got this Order before him in our Government. In 1337 when we gave orders to open the Justice Court, we appointed him as a Consultant and Assistant of its Director brother Nader Bin Faisal. In 1339 when we gave our orders to form the Ministry Council, we appointed him as Minister of Justice and the fourth member of the members of the Ministry. Hence we issued this certificate as proof of our happiness of his services and to mark our granting of the Order to him.

Issued on 21 Jumada Al Awal.?

Illustration No. 4 ?Inscription on top of Case

Illustration No. 5 ? Maker?s Name on inside of Case

Illustration No. 6 - Fitting for Medal on inside of Case

In addition to the above certificate there is also a medal case - alas empty. This is a dark blue leatherette oblong case of 8.5 cm by 14 cm and bears on the centre of the lid the embossed gold Arabic calligraphic monogram,

?The Sa`eedeeya State of Oman?

Sa`eedee being the dynastic name of the ruling family of Oman. Whilst there is no award evident the case bears evidence of the imprint of a multi-pointed circular award with possibly some form of crown suspension and ribbon. The case is of English manufacture and bears on the inside of the lid the following details,

"Kenning & Son,

Goldsmiths,

Little Britain & Aldersgate St.,

London."

This company is now part of the London jewellers and regalia manufacturers Toye, Kenning and Spence of Great Queen Street."

]

From study of the illustration from the Indus Collection award I am convinced that they are one and the same indeed the calligraphy on the medal is identical to that on the presentation case. The case indicates a space for a suspension brooch and thus perhaps all that is now missing in this research is the pattern of the ribbon.

With regard to the number of classes I would infer from the wording of Sheikh Al Zubair bin Ali?s certificate where he is awarded the ?Order from the First Degree of the Second Level? that it was a multi-class order. James 's illustration could to bear this out but is not clear enough to come to a firm conclusion.

Does anyone have any contacts with the Indus Gallary to obtain the dimensions of the badge on display and an image of the reverse?

Many thanks,

Owain.

P.S. I now note that the Indus Numismatic Gallery is a dealer and not a public institution - if the purchaser of this award would like to contact me off thread by private message with further dimensions I would be grateful.

Edited October 3, 2008 by oamotme

[James Hoard]

James 's illustration could to bear this out but is not clear enough to come to a firm conclusion.

Actually, if one looks carefully at the b/w photograph I posted, one can conclude quite a lot. Firstly, if one looks particularly at the rim and rays of the star they are of exacly the same shape as the badge orignally posted. The same longer rays, thin, wavy and reminiscent of the Star of India. Separated by the same shaped shorter rays between them as in the badge - straight, arranged in threes, two longer than the one in the middle. The central disk surrounded by a raised enamelled band edged in he same metal as the rays.

It is not just the illustration either. Said-Reute says that he received the Saidi order 1st class on 10.10.1928 and was proud of it enough to show himself wearing it in the book. The other orders that he received were (courtesy of Chrisopher Buyers): Brilliant star of Zanzibar 2^nd class (2.7.1929), Lion and Sun of Persia 3^rd class (1913), Nishan-i-Osmanieh 3^rd class (1903), and Nobility Nishan-i-Mejidieh 4^th class (1895) of Turkey, and the Red Eagle of Prussia 4^th class (1912). Clearly, the picture is not of any one of the latter.

Cheers,

James

[oamotme]

James,

You argue the case well and I agree. I seem to recall seeing a picture of this gentlemen some years ago and being unable to identify this order. Do you have access to further details of this book?

Thaks,

Owain

[James Hoard]

James,

You argue the case well and I agree. I seem to recall seeing a picture of this gentlemen some years ago and being unable to identify this order. Do you have access to further details of this book?

Thaks,

Owain

Owain,

I am actually looking for a library that has all Said-Reute's publications to see if there may by any more. It looks like the Library of the School of Oriental and African Studies in London may be the best bet. However, I will need to arrange for a day pass, because it is not ordinarily open to members of the public. And it is best to leave it for a ime when I can afford to spend the best part of a Saturday on the ask.

Cheers,

James

[oamotme]

James,

Thanks and good luck. I will in due course draft a brief follow up to my June 2005 OMRS article including the illustration of this order and the details of Rudolph Said-Reute - this is an important part of the history of the develoment of awards in Arabia. I hope that I am able to get an illustration of the reverse and the dimensions of the badge.

With kind regards,

Owain

[James Hoard]

Owain

At long last I found an opportunity to visit the SOAS Library earlier today and found the book and picture mentioned by Chris Buyers.

Haarmann, Ulrich (ed.). Arab History and Civilisation Studies and Texts. Volume 3: An Arabian Princess Between Two Worlds; Memoirs, Letters Home, Sequels to the Memoirs, Syrian Customs and Usages by Sayyida Salme/Emily Ruete edited with an introduction by E. Van Donzel. E.J. Brill, Leiden, 1993.

The picture of Said-Ruete wearing the Saidi Order, breast star, riband and badge together with the Star of Zanzibar 2nd class breast star and neck badge and other order miniatures appears on page 135.

I cannot get my scan to load even though I have made it b&w, cut it down to size, changed format from jpeg to gif, and tried loading three times. If you would like a copy please do send me a note with an e-mail address that could take largish jpeg files.

Cheers,

James

[Megan]

If you would care to e-mail a copy to me I can put my image-fiddling skills to use...

[Megan]

James has kindly sent a copy of his picture to me, I'll have at it when I get home!

[oamotme]

Owain

At long last I found an opportunity to visit the SOAS Library earlier today and found the book and picture mentioned by Chris Buyers.

Haarmann, Ulrich (ed.). Arab History and Civilisation Studies and Texts. Volume 3: An Arabian Princess Between Two Worlds; Memoirs, Letters Home, Sequels to the Memoirs, Syrian Customs and Usages by Sayyida Salme/Emily Ruete edited with an introduction by E. Van Donzel. E.J. Brill, Leiden, 1993.

The picture of Said-Ruete wearing the Saidi Order, breast star, riband and badge together with the Star of Zanzibar 2nd class breast star and neck badge and other order miniatures appears on page 135.

I cannot get my scan to load even though I have made it b&w, cut it down to size, changed format from jpeg to gif, and tried loading three times. If you would like a copy please do send me a note with an e-mail address that could take largish jpeg files.

Cheers,

James

James,

Many thanks - my e-mail is rawrees@yahoo .co.uk.

Owain

[Megan]

OK, home now.

To start, the picture in more-or-less full - I trimmed the edges so as to maximise the important bits like face & medals (we can assume legs, don't need to see them!).

[Megan]

We can now work through the gongs (for the curious, working from the full-size image which was indeed massive, cropped each in turn then enlarged, but did not sharpen as was reaching unacceptable levels of grainyness).

1. The neck badge:

2. The miniature bar:

3. The stars:

4. The sash badge:

[James Hoard]

Megan,

Thank you so much. You are an absolute star.

I left the legs in because of the caption at the bottom.

When someone does not have access to the original source, every little helps authenticate the claim.

With all best wishes,

James