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Hi Claudius,

you hadn't wait 80 years - only 30....

:jumping::jumping::jumping:

Without Crown -WOW. At the risk of mentioning something everyone knows, depending on the source, the House and Merit Order of Duke Peter Friedrich Ludwig 2nd Class w/ Sword and Crown was awarded 247 times between 1839-1918.

The DPFL 2nd Class w/Swords (no crown) was awarded only 39 times. The recipients are (mostly) known and this bar is perhaps attributable, through deduction???? Who was still alive in 1934. Who didn't get any other state award. etc.

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Oldenburg's House Order with Swords 1914-18 Roll is complete. My late friend Neal O'Connor published it in that volume of his aviation series because there were so few of them.

I've got a copy of the original roll for the World War which I am fairly sure I've POSTED scans of here somewhere in the past but cannot FIND becauise no matter what I enter to "search" I get the same EIGHT PAGES of "matches." :banger:

As Werner says, too many "all the same" junior officers about whom nothing else is KNOWN to be able to tell them apart.

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Hallo Werner;

I understand you point. But let's look at who we can take out. We know he isn't B?ning and their may be others that have other known awards.

Next, he was likely serving in an Oldenburg unit due to also recieving the FA cross (two of the state awards and none others).

He was alive in 1934.

The bar is very will done and shows the pride of the owner and the maker but it doesn't have the "Vor Dem Feinde" clasp that was authorized on Sept 20th 1918.

IMPORTANT: Your bar has a Berlin maker label. Can't we assume he was living in Berlin when the bar was made? There are period address books.

Rank name unit award date

Oberleutnant Richard Suhrkamp IR 91 18.9.17

Leutnant Franz Smits IR 161 18.9.17

Oberleutnant zur See Heino von Heimburg Krigshafen Kiel 7.10.17

Oberleutnant zur See Max Valentiener U-Flottille Flandern 27.12.17

Leutnant Eckert IR 91 17.1.18

Leutnant Georg R?ver IR 74 8.2.18

Leutnant Karl Giese IR 17 21.2.18

Leutnant Karl Arnold IR 115 (Hess) 23.4.18

Leutnant Plugradt IR 91 22.5.18

Leutnant Hess IR 91 22.5.18

Leutnant Schumann IR 91 22.5.18

Leutnant Weichardt IR 91 22.5.18

Oberleutnant Georg Ruhstrat FAR 58 14.7.18

Leutnant Reinhard Murken IR 79 14.7.18

Leutnant Walter B?ning Jasta 76b 21.8.18

Leutnant Becker IR 91 23.8.18

Leutnant Wilhelm Conze IR 91 23.8.18

Leutnant Max Bueschel IR 91 23.8.18

Leutnant Helmuth Gabriel IR 91 23.8.18

Leutnant Edward Gesell Pionier Komp 185 5.9.18

Leutnant Friederichsen FAR 17 18.9.18

Leutnant Siegfried Harms IR 86 (Schleswig-Holsteinisches) 30.9.18

Leutnant Ernst Peltner IR 91 6.10.18

Oberleutnant Ahlhorn IR 82 (2.Kurhessische) 16.10.18

Oberleutnant Fritz Helmuth IR 91 24.10.18

Leutnant Lueder IR 91 8.11.18

Leutnant Stotz IR 91 8.11.18

Oberleutnant Ziegler (aka Stege) IR 91 8.11.18

Leutnant Carstens IR 91 8.11.18

Leutnant Wegmann FAR 62 27.1.19

Leutnant Thien FAR 62 27.1.19

Leutnant von Essen FAR 62 27.1.19

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Oberleutnant dR Richard Suhrkamp IR 91 18.9.17 (1891-1958)

Leutnant dR Franz Smits IR 161 18.9.17

Oberleutnant zur See Heino von Heimburg Krigshafen Kiel 7.10.17 Admiral. Many other awards

Oberleutnant zur See Max Valentiner U-Flottille Flandern 27.12.17 Pour le Merite amny other awards

Leutnant dR Eckert IR 91 17.1.18

Leutnant dR Georg R?ver IR 74 8.2.18

Leutnant dL Karl Giese IR 17 21.2.18

Leutnant Karl Arnold IR 115 (Hess) 23.4.18

Leutnant Kurt Pflugradt IR 91 22.5.18 Other awards, died 1925

Leutnant dR Hess IR 91 22.5.18

Leutnant dR Schumann IR 91 22.5.18

Leutnant G?nther Weichardt IR 91 22.5.18 General Had ?M3K

Oberleutnant Georg Ruhstrat FAR 58 14.7.18 Also had LKr

Leutnant dR Reinhard Murken IR 79 14.7.18

Leutnant Walter B?ning Jasta 76b 21.8.18 Other awards

Leutnant Becker IR 91 23.8.18

Leutnant Wilhelm Conze IR 91 23.8.18 General. ?M3K

Leutnant Max B?schel IR 91 23.8.18 Killed in action 1918

Leutnant dR Helmuth Gabriel IR 91 23.8.18

Leutnant dR Edward Gesell Pionier Komp 185 5.9.18

Leutnant dR Friederichsen FAR 17 18.9.18

Leutnant Siegfried Harms IR 86 (Schleswig-Holsteinisches) 30.9.18

Leutnant dR Ernst Peltner IR 91 6.10.18

Oberleutnant dR Ahlhorn IR 82 (2.Kurhessische) 16.10.18 Had ?M3K

Oberleutnant dR Fritz Helmuth IR 91 24.10.18

Leutnant Lueder IR 91 8.11.18

Leutnant Folkert Stotz IR 91 8.11.18 Had HH

Oberleutnant Ziegler genannt Stege IR 91 8.11.18

Leutnant Carstens IR 91 8.11.18

Leutnant dR Wegmann FAR 62 RIR 229 27.1.19

Leutnant Thien FAR 62 27.1.19 No HOH3X

Leutnant von Essen FAR 62 27.1.19 Had Vor dem Feinde bar.

That still leaves 20-- 6 of whom we do not even have first names for-- so there is no way to FIND them.

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Since the publishing of O'Connor's book ten years ago the first names of these six are still not known? I thought that maybe my list was obsolete and that other re-constructed lists have their full names.

While the person can't be identified directly, I had hoped that the bar could be "attributed to".

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No, that's how they're on the roll. I have a very neatly typed version done in 1940 and "Prussian style" they simply did not bother with first names. :speechless:

I cannot even comprehend what was wrong with the record keepers' brains. How much more basic than "full name" can you get?

This, you see, is what makes research so difficult and what takes the Gnomes so much time ADDING data to Rolls to be published to make very... odd originals USEFUL. :beer:

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