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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...

Thanks for posting Tom! Although it looks 100% authentically mounted by Godet, I am bit worried of the weird combination of awards... half non-front officer (Pr Kriegshilfkreuz, Bavarian Ludwig cross and Br KVK 2 Kl. am Nichtkämpferband) and the other half combatant (AO2X, SEHO RK 2 Kl X)... I don't also understand the non-official swords on the Bavarian Ludwig Cross, which was a completely civilian award.

Nonetheless an impressive bar of a long serving functionary.... (EZ für treue Dienste 1. Stufe 40 Jahre + 2 Anschluss medals)

:-)

ciao,

Claudio

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wasn't the SEHOx given out pre war?

it is odd but you have to wonder who could be that junior an officer and yet get a 40 year civil LS cross. also, the Bavarian cross was given to soldiers for war valued service in the homeland, but I know there were exceptions for some non combat types at the front, staff types. .......obviously they mounted it Prussians first, being Berliners, then war time awards......probably chronological after the PWK.

After seeing the 5/6 life saving medal bar that ended up belonging to a cavalry regimental commander, I hesitate before saying never.

Edited by Ulsterman
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  • 3 months later...

Dear Forumites,

My lastest Godet... a Senior LW Officer who was quite well decorated during WWI, still looking for a name...

  • Preußen, Eisernes Kreuz 1914 2. Klasse am Kämpferband (OEK 1909), E gs/S
  • Sachsen Königreich, Albrechts-Orden RK 1. Kl. mit Schwertern, Hersteller Scharffenberg (OEK 2206) Sv
  • Sächsische Herzogtümer, Ernestinischer Hausordens Ritterkreuz 1. Kl. mit Schwertern ohne Bandring vernäht, Reichsapfel mit Einriss (OEK 2475) G/Sv
  • Schwarzburg-Sondershausen, Ehrenkreuz 3. Kl. mit Schwertern (OEK 2785) S/Sv
  • Deutsches Reich 1933-45, Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer mit Schwertern (OEK 3803/1), Hersteller KM & F, Kallenbach, Meyer & Francke, Luckenwalde
  • Deutsches Reich 1933-45, LW-Dienstauszeichnung 2. Kl., 18 Jahre (OEK 3858)
  • Deutsches Reich 1933-45, LW-Dienstauszeichnung 4. Kl., 4 Jahre (OEK 3860)
  • Österreich 1. Republik, 1. Weltkriegs-Erinnerungsmedaille
  • Ungarn, 1. Weltkriegs-Erinnerungsmedaille

Enjoy...

ciao,

Claudio

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Hi Claudio, nice new find!!!

Egon Schneider, born 1882,

served as Captain in RIR 244, went to Flieger-Ersatzabteilung 1, retired after WW1.

Called back as LtCol in the Air Force.

Thanks to Dave Danner who gave me the source to ID this one!

Lots of greetings

Daniel

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? Retired or dead before summer 1944--not surprising at his age.

SA3aX 27.08.15 Hptm RIR 244

EH3aX (Altenburg) 01.12.16 Hptm FEA 1---

Still have several of our Orders Rolls books from 2008... have noted we are selling As If Dead on Amazon for higher than what we'd charge still alive. :o:whistle:

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Egon recieved the SEK3X on 15.1.15, also with Saxon RIR 244.

His father Max Schneider was a professional officer. Egon was born on 24 November 1882 in Altenburg, where his father was a Premier-Lieutenant in IR 96 (then also an Altenburg regiment). Egon entered the army after graduating in 1903 from the Gymnasium Sondershausen, where his father was then the Landwehrbezirk-Kommandeur. Max Schneider retired in Sondershausen and received the SEK2 mit Eichenbruch on 28.7.16 while serving again as stellv. Bezirks-Kommandeur Sondershausen.

Egon Schneider was an Oberleutnant in FAR 55 when the war began. He went to Luftschifftrupp 3 on mobliization, and for some reason ended up going to a Saxon regiment, RIR 244, in November 1914. He was only there a short time before being sent to observer training. He spent the rest of the war as an aviator. He was a Major (E) from 1935 to 1937. Came back as a Maj.z.D. in 1938, OTLzD on 1.1.42, released from active duty on 29.7.44.

Other awards: EK2 (20.12.14), EK1 (15.9.18), Fliegerbeobachterabz. (25.1.18), Fliegererinnerungsabz. (8.1.20), Frontkämpferehrenkreuz (18.12.34), Ung. Kr.Erinn.Med. (7.7.36), Österr.Kr.Erinn.Med. (17.10.36), WLDA2 (2.10.36)

Regards,

Dave

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Tom's bar up in #205 is exactly what might be expected for

Oskar OTTO, born 17 July 1873.

EH3bX (Altenburg) 06.04.16 Eisenbahn Betriebskontrolleur, Linien Kommandantur Lüttich

SA3bX 29.01.17 Eisenbahn Betriebskontrolleur, Militär Eisenbahn Direktion 5 (Vilna)

Reichsbahn Amtmann 01.10.30 (age 57 before he made "Major"), Betriebskontrolleur Reichsbahn Direktion Essen in 1934

No way to check the other awards, but he was the sole SA3bX/EH3bX lonnnnnnng civil service without military long service to turn up on the Rolls.

Good thing we published the triple Ernestines in 2008, huh?

Reichsbahn Verzeichnis 1934 is the only place I can spot career details for him, since as an Oberleutnant-equivalent, he isn't shown in Court and State Handbooks before 1919.

Edited by Rick Research
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Dear forumites friends!

Thanks a lot for your joint effort... :cheers::):beer: another nameless bar being identified... incredible! I couldn't imagine that Tom's bar could be as well identified... but judging by the job of Tom's medal bar bearer, it makes quite sense now.

Thanks again!

ciao,

Claudio

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Tom's bar up in #205 is exactly what might be expected for

Oskar OTTO, born 17 July 1873.

EH3bX (Altenburg) 06.04.16 Eisenbahn Betriebskontrolleur, Linien Kommandantur Lüttich

SA3bX 29.01.17 Eisenbahn Betriebskontrolleur, Militär Eisenbahn Direktion 5 (Vilna)

Reichsbahn Amtmann 01.10.30 (age 57 before he made "Major"), Betriebskontrolleur Reichsbahn Direktion Essen in 1934

No way to check the other awards, but he was the sole SA3bX/EH3bX lonnnnnnng civil service without military long service to turn up on the Rolls.

Good thing we published the triple Ernestines in 2008, huh?

Reichsbahn Verzeichnis 1934 is the only place I can spot career details for him, since as an Oberleutnant-equivalent, he isn't shown in Court and State Handbooks before 1919.

Oh my gosh! :speechless1: Yahoooooo! :jumping:

Dear Rick,

Thank you so much for bringing the name back to this medal bar. As unusual as the combination of awards is, I never thought that this bar would be identifiable because of the civil service career. I can't even imagine how much effort it took on your part to make this ID. THANK YOU is such a small thing to say, but I do mean it with the utmost sincerity and gratitude. And thank you, too, to anyone else that may have played a part in helping to solve this puzzle.

What do you make of the placement of Imperial Orders & Decorations on this bar? After the Iron Cross, do you think the rest were placed by date of award? Or do you think they were placed simply to make the bar look more aesthetically pleasing?

Thank you & best regards,

Tom :)

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That's a "George Seymour bar"--the sort of truly OBSCURE puzzle that he always enjoyed hunting down--and he never had the advantage of our combined Research Gnome computer work. The key is BECAUSE the awards indicate an "ancient" Mere Lieutenant level, but without military long service awards that an ordnance officer or paymaster would have had. I came across a handful of reserve veterinarians who seemed possible, but winnowing them ALL down

because none of them were on the public payroll (Court and State Handbooks) that far back... when only one is left, that's who.

Other weird military court martial clerk types also ended up being excluded, one by one by one... cross checking EVERY EH3bX with every SA3bX for low level "officer" status with long civil service--and no Reserve/Landwehr decoration. Couple of hours, with the right jigsaw puzzle pieces--and the reference sources on hand.

Can never have too many reference books.

Probably Otto wore these in Crown Seniority-- Prussia first, then Kingdoms. Saxony gave him a nice swords Order, so them ahead of the nondescript Ludwig Cross (ribbons X is a weird touch!), then snaazzzy Duchy followed by microscopic Duchy. Who'd put a BrK2 ahead of an EH3bX?

The thing to always remember is it isn't how ordinary the awards are. Just like the winning lottery ticket numbers, its the combination. There were HUNDREDS of SA3bX/EH3bX matches... for active and YOUNG dR officers, and older dL types (With LD2s and LD1s)... none in wartime positions of the sort of Front/Rear like this, though.

Actually, yoour bar has answered a question that rose doing the Saxe-Meiningen Medals rolls. I kept finding "combatant" ribboned medals to civil service titled railwaymen... and wondered if they'd have OT been eligible for a Hindenburg Cross--at all-as civilians. Otto answered that!

Edited by Rick Research
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Probably Otto wore these in Crown Seniority-- Prussia first, then Kingdoms. Saxony gave him a nice swords Order, so them ahead of the nondescript Ludwig Cross (ribbons X is a weird touch!), then snaazzzy Duchy followed by microscopic Duchy. Who'd put a BrK2 ahead of an EH3bX?

Hi Rick,

That makes complete sense to me. I was thinking there was some artistic license going on here, but it seems, after all, there was a method to the madness. I could not understand why a King Ludwig Cross betwween a Saxon Order and a Saxe-Altenburg Order. But Bavaria was a Kingdom and Saxe-Altenburg was only a Duchy.

Thank you & best regards,

Tom

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In case anyone is interested, Egon Schneider of Claudio's bar above also had a younger brother in the Imperial Army and Wehrmacht. Gerhard Schneider, born 17.7.1887, was commissioned into IR 153 straight out of the Hauptkadettenanstalt. He was an Erzieher at the HKA when the war began, and went to RIR 66. He spent the war in RIR 66 and various staff jobs, including serving as Ausbildungs-Offizier to Prince Noureddin of the Ottoman Empire. He spent World War II as Leiter of the Wehrmeldeamt Donaueschingen (OTL z.D. on 1.6.43).

He was the otherwise anonymous Lt. Schneider at the HKA with the HSAE in the 1914 rank list, and the otherwise anonymous Lt. Schneider in RIR 66 with the EH3bX in Daniel's and Rick's Ernestine book. And like his brother, he got the SEK3X.

Regards,

Dave

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Schwarzburg wouldn't have helped much, actually. They just had him as an OLt. in IR 153. Connecting the dots between the IR 153, RIR 66 and HKA Schneiders was only possible with his Wehrmacht personnel file.

And my only "immaculate Godet Spange" still remains annoyingly elusive:

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Hi Dave!

Thanks for the additional info on Egon's brother.

I always liked your bar... but I think it will be really tough to trace the owner... no LS awards, no FEK (so bar was put together before 1934-35, maybe even earlier)... But the combination is really appealing... Very likely this officer (Reserve most likely) served on the Southern front (Austria and Bulgaria war decorations, although the Bulgarian MVO is on Tapferkeitsband but without the KD wreath). Very, very interesting...

Good luck in finding him! :-)

ciao,

Claudio

Edited by Claudio
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Hi Claudio!

The clues are these:

1. That is a 1905 Jubilee Medal of the Bavarian Army, so we know he was a Bavarian officer then.

2. The ribbon bar shows that he was awarded the Sachsen-Meiningen Ehrenkreuz before he received his Bavarian MVO.

3. The medal bar precedence is more Prussian than Bavarian, though not definitively so. The MVO is after the EK2, and the Jubilee Medal after the SMK. Technically, the Jubilee Medal was supposed to rank ahead of all non-Bavarian decorations except the EK2, although Bavarians were not strict with that, especially with war decorations.

Having failed to find him among any of the known Bavarian recipients of the SMK or among any of the Sachsen-Meiningen born officers in the Bavarian Kriegsranglisten, Rick and I are inclined to think he was an a.D. Bavarian who on mobilization ended up in the Prussian Army. So he shows up in the SMK lists as just another Prussian, maybe a combat officer or maybe an Oberarzt/Stabsarzt or the like.

Dave

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I am quite sure, that this person got his EK not in France, but somewhere in Berlin in a government department. So may be, he´s hidden in the 1918 Staatshandbuch. I would not be surprised, if he had prussian neck decorations too.

Regards, Komtur.

PS: Welcome back Mr. Research :beer:

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