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Hello Scott,

A very nice medal bar, but I agree with the others that it is a bit too pricey. Here is another example of an original medal bar sporting a non-combatant Iron Cross in combination with the Wehrmacht 25 and 12.

Best regards,

Tom

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Hello Scott,

A very nice medal bar, but I agree with the others that it is a bit too pricey. Here is another example of an original medal bar sporting a non-combatant Iron Cross in combination with the Wehrmacht 25 and 12.

Best regards,

Tom

Hey Tom,

I am surprised at the order that these medals are arranged. I would think that the KVK2 would have filled the number 2 position.

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Hey Tom,

I am surprised at the order that these medals are arranged. I would think that the KVK2 would have filled the number 2 position.

Hi Paul,

Yes indeed! The order of precedence is correct on this bar except for the placement of the 1939 KVK2X, which should actually be in the #2 spot. In a perfect world where everyone understood all of the regulations (and willingly obeyed them) you would never see a mistake such as this. But the fact of the matter is that these bars were hand-assembled by human beings (and civilians to boot) so mistakes in order placement were frequently made. In my opinion, the incorrect placement of a 1939 KVK is a fairly common mistake, especially prior to the 1942 regulations. Prior to 1942, there was confusion because the War Merit Cross was ranked after the Iron Cross and before the 1914-1918 Cross of Honor. The War Merit Medal was ranked after the 1914-1918 Cross until 1942, when it was elevated to the status of the War Merit Cross. I wonder: How many civilian assemblers realized the difference between a 1939 War Merit Cross and a 1939 War Merit Medal?

We can't forget either, that some of these WWI veterans didn't give a damn about the regulations. Many valued their WWI decorations more highly than a 1939 KVK. So whether this was a simple mistake or intentionally done, it is by no means an uncommon thing.

Best regards,

Tom

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Hi Paul,

Yes indeed! The order of precedence is correct on this bar except for the placement of the 1939 KVK2X, which should actually be in the #2 spot. In a perfect world where everyone understood all of the regulations (and willingly obeyed them) you would never see a mistake such as this. But the fact of the matter is that these bars were hand-assembled by human beings (and civilians to boot) so mistakes in order placement were frequently made. In my opinion, the incorrect placement of a 1939 KVK is a fairly common mistake, especially prior to the 1942 regulations. Prior to 1942, there was confusion because the War Merit Cross was ranked after the Iron Cross and before the 1914-1918 Cross of Honor. The War Merit Medal was ranked after the 1914-1918 Cross until 1942, when it was elevated to the status of the War Merit Cross. I wonder: How many civilian assemblers realized the difference between a 1939 War Merit Cross and a 1939 War Merit Medal?

We can't forget either, that some of these WWI veterans didn't give a damn about the regulations. Many valued their WWI decorations more highly than a 1939 KVK. So whether this was a simple mistake or intentionally done, it is by no means an uncommon thing.

Best regards,

Tom

Oh I agree with you 100%. I bet that errors are more common than period perfect bars. I really like the patina and uniform wear on the ribbons(from what can be seen). Can you post some closeups?

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Oh I agree with you 100%. I bet that errors are more common than period perfect bars. Yes! Yes! Yes! :jumping: I really like the patina and uniform wear on the ribbons(from what can be seen). Can you post some closeups?

Hi Paul,

Here are some closeup shots of the medal bar. I hope these pictures are better. Unfortunately, it seems that I always have to compress down the images so as to be within the allowable posting size. This is one of the reasons I never liked posting things on this otherwise great forum.

Best regards,

Tom

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Hello

I am going to get this bar ! I know its a bit high but i am facinated by this bar ! a long serving noncombatant from before ww 1 to 3rd reich ! and condition seems super i will post mor pics when i get it ! Ulsterman i would like to see any pics you might have ! Paul and Paul do you think it can be ided??? :rolleyes:

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Hello

I am going to get this bar ! I know its a bit high but i am facinated by this bar ! a long serving noncombatant from before ww 1 to 3rd reich ! and condition seems super i will post mor pics when i get it ! Ulsterman i would like to see any pics you might have ! Paul and Paul do you think it can be ided??? :rolleyes:

I like your bar as well. The Centenial medal actually has this man's service starting well before 1918! (1901).

Tom,

there has to be a way to make bigger images. How many pixels do you have per inch set on your scanner? Look at the size of Scott's images. You should be allowed to make much bigger images...

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Almost everything said above is conjecture based more upon modern late 20th century collector mind-sets than historical evidence.

The FACTS are:

1. Errors were made on bars. That is axiomatic. However, Germans have and had a passion for exactitude. These furled bars were made by PROFESSIONAL tailors and their assistants 99% of the time. Professionals knew the rules, because they got PAID to know them. It was embarrassing for a professional officer in the German army to be "out of order" (It still is in fact-ask our Bundeswehr members here). In the contemporary US army by contrast, nobody then and today really cares all that much.

2. Sometimes contemporary "errors" followed a pattern:e.g. Austrians and the HKx, flower wars medal confusion.

3. 99% ++ of the time, NO errors were made in the TR. Photographs demonstrate this.

4. Errors WERE and ARE made far more often by people who make fake bars (esp. in England in the 1960s-1970s).

5. Look closely at the Silesian Eagle... I would check that with a magnet and study it VERY hard.

6. Fakes also sometimes follow a pattern.

7. Again, what clear evidence is there that this bar is authentic? Whose collection did it come from or is there provenance?

Saying something like "Looks like period construction" is a valid comment, BUT these have been made by fakers for over 40 years. Without inspecting the ribbons we can not tell.

What I CAN tell you for certain is that I CAN make a bar like this. I have the tailoring skills and I have met others who can do it too. They even bought and used moth-eaten backing felt that was 50 years old.

Caution is warranted, ESP. as this is a desirable Noncom. bar.

Edited by Ulsterman
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Paul

i believe ulsterman has ???s on second bar with 3rd reich war service and selisian eagle ! top bar i will get better pics when it arrives ! I am facinated with this bar for some reason !!!! I have othe non combat bars but this one with TR ls award stikes me as uncommon! Ulsterman do you have any photos with this combo??? paul where do i start to try to put a name to it ?? :jumping:

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hello

bar arrived today ! It is in super shape !! and seems to be all original !EK2 IS a super example of high quality ! all ribbons are no glow under black lite ! I am happy with this one even though I paid a bit high I think its a quality piece ! I am only going for High Quality clean non combat bars !

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