Claudio Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Dear forumites,I was just caught in the big Friday's buying frenzy at Niemann's.... I guess it's very dangerous and very contagious. Actually Niemann didn't have for a long time really interesting bars, but last update was really interesting. Especially the Saxon Godet's Frackspange I missed by few seconds; I immediately bid on it in the first minute after 2 AM but somehow I didn't manage to get it!!!! argghh... There must be some people they are very "trigger happy"... I didn't even have the time to read the description that it was already gone... sometimes I am wondering how people can blindly buy such expensive collectibles without even checking.Also because of my frustration I didn't want to let escape me another bar (see below). I don't think however that this bar belonged to Oberstleutnant von Rothkirch und Panten of the Leibhusaren Regiment, since the combination doesn't really look like a typical Prussian senior officer of a guards' regiment. I checked also my 1913 Rangliste, but I didn't come up with this name (Maybe Res. Offz.?). I thought that maybe this bar could belong to somebody of the same family, who was a junior officer in WWI and later a senior officer in WWII; 3. Aufkl. 8 which could also indicate a cavalry-like unit (Aufkl?rungstruppen).I thank you already in advance for any interesting inputs you might give me! Ciao,Claudio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottplen Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 That saxon bar was sweet!!!!! I thought of you as soon as i saw it and figured i be seeing it on the forum! shame you missed that one but this bar is a great one also~ :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 No paper trail to follow without long service awards. Not a match awards/dog tag--Oberleutnant, not Oberstleutnant.The presence of what must be Italian St.s Maurice & Lazarus and Crown of Italy ribbons on the ribbon bar but not medal bar suggest "Kleindekorations" for Commander grades since they are not on the medal bar.Nothing here to "trace" but the single HOH3X which is hopeless. Two Commander grade Italian Orders would have to be Mussolini era-- and THAT suggests somebody in the diplomatic corps who didn't have time in for a Treudienst 25 after leaving WW1 military service to attend university (gap of 4 years time) and THEN get into a state job. But keep eyes open for somebody young-but-senior at the German Embassy just before the Second War started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 BTW... that was NOT a Saxon Godet Bar. It was a Prussian. The precedence, lack of an Honor Cross or LS Award suggests Prussia to me. especially since the St. Henry was a bronze-gilt one. This type of 'spangen-stuch' SHRK is something i have seen maybe once in an actual Saxon group..... usually, at least in my experience; this version of the award was a purchased piece from another state.I don't think any Saxon would mount the awards in that precedence unless it was post 1934... and if so, there should be at least an HK & LSA on the bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudio Posted March 7, 2009 Author Share Posted March 7, 2009 (edited) Something interesting found on the net http://www.vonrothkirch.de/index.php?rubrik_ID=177Freiherrliche und gr?fliche Linien:1839 wurde Friedrich aus dem Hause Rothkirch in den Freiherrnstand erhoben. Seit 1861 f?hren die Angeh?rigen des Hauses Panthenau den Namen Grafen v. Rothkirch und Trach, die des Hauses B?rsdorf den Namen Grafen v. Rothkirch, Freiherrn v. Trach. Die Angeh?rigen der H?user Massel, Rothkirch und Schottgau f?hren den vollst?ndigen Namen v. Rothkirch und Panthen.http://www.vonrothkirch.de/index.php?rubrik_ID=179Aus dem 20. Jahrhundert seien genannt Friedrich-Wilhelm (1884-1953), Generalleutnant und Ritterkreuztr?ger, und Edwin (1888-1980), General der Kavallerie und nach dem Krieg Vorstandsmitglied des deutschen Olympischen Komitees f?r Reiterei.I don't think either that the bar belonged to one of the above-mentioned Generals:Friedrich-WilhelmName: Friedrich-Wilhelm von**Rothkirch und PanthenBorn: 16.2.1884 at DarmstadtDied: 24.12.1953 at TrierFirst Joined: 24.2.1902Became Lt: Drag.Rgt.8 18.8.03Prewar Service: Verabschiedet 31.8.22Inf.Regt.49 12.10.37Promotions: Obstlt 15.10.35Oberst 1.3.37Gen. Maj. 1.8.39Gen.Lt. 1.8.41Command Inf.Regt.49 1.9.3913 Inf.Div. (Mot) 1.11.39.-26.7.41148.Res.Div 1.4.43.-1.10.43AUSGESCHIEDEN 30.11.43Awards Ritterkreuzhttp://www.das-ritterkreuz.de/index_search...hword=rothkirchor Edwinhttp://www.specialcamp11.fsnet.co.uk/Gener...und%20Trach.htmI also found a major...Major Graf Hans-Siegfried von Rothkirch und Trach (05.Feb.1945, Raum Alte Oder - Sch?ferbr?cke in sowjet.Kgf.), II.Abt. / Pz.Rgt.Brb. (I.Abt.) Maybe the one? He was a Major of the reserve... but I hardly believe that he is the one, since he's of the Trach branch (Graf/Count) of the Rothkirch.http://www.das-ritterkreuz.de/index_search...hword=rothkirchWell, the Rothkirchs seemed to have quite a military family tradition... 2 Ritterkreuztr?ger!!! I am sure that there must have been at least one officer named von Rothkirch with a HHOX during WWI... the search continues...Ciao,Claudio Edited March 7, 2009 by Claudio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudio Posted March 7, 2009 Author Share Posted March 7, 2009 (edited) I found another Rothkrich... but I don't think he was the original owner of the bar.... this one was an U-Boat Officer... incredible this family!http://www.uboat.net/men/commanders/1034.htmlFirst Watch Officer Oberleutnant z. See Von Rothkirch in the Control Room while cruising submerged. Von Rothkirch later became the commander of U-717 making one patrol in the Baltic in Autum 1944. Edited March 7, 2009 by Claudio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Sorry for being offtopic, but just curious: could someone please post that Saxon bar from Niemann? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudio Posted March 8, 2009 Author Share Posted March 8, 2009 Hi Sascha,Here's the Frackspange we were talking about... like Stogieman said it's Prussian bar, but what it makes this bar so interesting is the StHO. Textbook Godet style bar and ribbon bar mounting. I can't look at it... I am so furious that I missed for a couple of seconds. You must know I am quite a Godet's fetish... Ciao,Claudio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Absolutely textbook Godet set... To a Prussian junior super hero Leutnant, Oberleutnant, Hauptmann... stunning, thanks for showing. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtwinVince Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 I also missed the St. Henry bar, one of the nicest Godet bars I've seen lately, and I've been looking for a St. Henry like this for years. Of course it also has the luxury Centenarmedaille. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudio Posted May 20, 2010 Author Share Posted May 20, 2010 Dear forumites, I was browsing on Wikipedia reading about the battle of Liegnitz ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Legnica ) and discovered this very interesting information about this medal owner's ancestors on German Wikipedia (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlacht_bei_Wahlstatt): Folgen der Schlacht Der polnisch-deutsche Blutzoll des Kampfes war ungeheuer. Sämtliche höheren Kommandeure kamen ums Leben, allein Herzog Friedrich von Österreich konnte sich retten. Sechs schlesische Adelsfamilien verloren bei Liegnitz nahezu alle ihre Väter und Söhne. Die späteren Grafen von Strachwitz beklagten 14 Gefallene. Von der Familie Rothkirch starben sämtliche männlichen Familienmitglieder, bis auf einen nach der Schlacht geborenen Knaben. Schwere Verluste erlitten auch die Familien Nostitz, Seydlitz, Prittwitz und Zedlitz. Doch die Verluste der Mongolen waren ebenfalls außerordentlich. Nach einem vergeblichen Versuch, Liegnitz zu erobern, stoppte Baidar Khan den Marsch nach Westen und zog mit seinen Truppen südlich zur Hauptmacht nach Ungarn. Unterwegs wurden mongolische Truppenteile von Gotthart Brandis zurückgeschlagen. Die Mongolen zogen sich entlang der Sudeten nach Mähren zurück. Da nach der Umkehr der Mongolen die abendländische Allianz wieder zerfiel, stand Böhmen nun allein den Mongolen gegenüber. Die Gebirgspässe bei Kłodzko (Glatz) ließen sich zwar sperren, aber nach der Einnahme von Racibórz (Ratibor) und Opava (Troppau) fielen die Mongolen durch die Mährische Pforte in Mähren ein, nahmen Prerau, Littau, Wischau sowie andere Städte und verwüsteten die Hanna-Ebene. Nur zwei mährischen Städte - Olmütz und Brünn – sowie das nordostungarische Neustadt am Zeltberg widerstanden und wurden von den Mongolen erfolglos belagert. Olmütz wurde durch 6.000 Mann unter Jaroslaw von Sternberg verteidigt, der bei einem Ausfall Baidar Khan im Kampf getötet haben soll. Die Mongolen rückten drei Tage später von Olmütz ab und schlossen sich in Ungarn wieder Batu Khans Hauptheer an. Trotz ihres Sieges auch über die Ungarn drangen die Mongolen nicht weiter nach Westen vor, möglicherweise weil Großkhan Ögedei Khan im Dezember 1241 starb und die Erbfolge unklar war. Vermutlich zogen die mongolischen Anführer ab, um einen neuen Herrscher zu wählen. Auf dem Schlachtfeld ließen die Mutter und die Frau Heinrichs, die Herzoginnen Hedwig und Anna von Böhmen, eine Propstei errichten und übergaben diese den Benediktinern des Klosters Opatowitz bei Königgrätz. Heinrichs Leichnam wurde gefunden. Der um die Propstei entstehende Ort wurde nach dem Allgemeinbegriff Schlachtfeld Wahlstatt genannt; seit 1948 heißt er Legnickie Pole (d. h. Liegnitzer Feld). Noch heute findet in der Propstei jedes Jahr am 9. April ein Gottesdienst zur Erinnerung an die Schlacht statt. Vettern von Wahlstatt Vettern von Wahlstatt nannten sich später sechs schlesische Adelsfamilien, von denen jeweils nur ein männliches Familienmitglied die Schlacht überlebt haben soll – die Familien Rothkirch, Strachwitz, Nostitz, Seydlitz, Prittwitz und Zedlitz. Einem Mythos zufolge verlor die Familie Rothkirch alle männlichen Familienangehörigen in der Schlacht. Einzig ein erst nach der Schlacht geborener männlicher Nachkomme existierte. Für diesen übernahm der Bund der überlebenden Kämpfer die Vormundschaft. Die heute lebenden Mitglieder dieser sechs Familien veranstalten regelmäßig Treffen im Gedenken an den Tag der Schlacht. He practically says that during this battle where a confederation of poles, silesians and Christian orders were defeated by the Mongols, the noble Rothkirch family lost all his male descendants, but one who was born after the battle. Incredible... I am still looking information (exact names and CV) on the holder of the medal bar. Any pointers or suggestions are most welcome! Ciao, Claudio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudio Posted May 20, 2010 Author Share Posted May 20, 2010 Here's the shield carried by an Ancestor of the above-mentioned medal bar holder who was a Bannenträger (Fahnenträger) during the battle... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul C Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Hi Sascha, Here's the Frackspange we were talking about... like Stogieman said it's Prussian bar, but what it makes this bar so interesting is the StHO. Textbook Godet style bar and ribbon bar mounting. I can't look at it... I am so furious that I missed for a couple of seconds. You must know I am quite a Godet's fetish... <img src="http://gmic.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" /> Ciao, Claudio I have some doubts about this bar. It is a bar to a Prussian but there is a SHO on the bars, which is highly unusual. Also I would think a non-Saxon would have all been awarded the Sax-Albert first or in addition to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted May 22, 2010 Share Posted May 22, 2010 Great research, Claudio! I have some doubts about this bar. It is a bar to a Prussian but there is a SHO on the bars, which is highly unusual. Also I would think a non-Saxon would have all been awarded the Sax-Albert first or in addition to. I think there were Prussians who did not get an Albrecht but an instant Heinrich. Probably very few, but I won't exclude it. Furthermore, the bar looks absolutely fine and seems to be a contemporary Godet work. If this were faked, I would not trust any more medal bar. If actually noone wore/won this combination, it may be a display bar from Godet shop's window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudio Posted May 22, 2010 Author Share Posted May 22, 2010 I am with Sascha on this one... Everything that this bar shows, perfect allined medals, immaculately folded ribbons, color of the backing with label, metal base of the bar, metal needle and catch, the typical kind of loose stitching on the back, the not so flawlessly folded ribbon rosettes on the bottom and back of the back... I mean this bar shows all the details of a typically medal bar put together by Godet. Now I might have given too many info to the fakers... In the past some unlabelled bars have been described as "Godet", when to me they weren't (I own more than 20 of Godet bars). This one is one of it. If the actual owner doesn't want it anymore, I will be more than willing to buy it from him! :whistle: Moreover I don't why I no Prussian couldn't have received the St. Heinrich Order... maybe not common but possible. If you want to discuss this Godet bar any further, please do it in another separate thread, since I was trying to research and gather info on the bar of Obltn von Rothkirch und Panthen. Ciao, Claudio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deruelle Posted May 22, 2010 Share Posted May 22, 2010 Hi, For me there is no problem with this bar and the fact that one Prussian could received the SH3. Some Aces received the SH3 and were not Saxon : Richthofen, Bonhnstedt, Berthold ... For the second and third name, it is easy to receive it like thy served in a Saxon unit. For Richthofen, his popularity made the rest. Do you know if someone here has this bar, just for my curiosity. Christophe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deruelle Posted May 22, 2010 Share Posted May 22, 2010 After a small research I have found 76 names of Prussian officers who received the SH3. Christophe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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