India 7 place group - Policeman to Rifleman

[Brian Wolfe]

Hello Everyone,

I wanted to share a 7 place group I just got in from India. Some of the medals are "vacant" on the bar as is quite common as these medals had not arrived at the time the court mounting took place.

The interesting thing about this bar is that the recipient started out in the B.S.F. (Border Security Force) which is a paramilitary organization and then went to the Garhwal Rifles. The B.S.F. keeps the peace along India's borders but in time of war they have been used against the enemy forces in the same manner as the regular military. The naming on the medals is as follows:

Samar Seva Star - 540 CONST. MADAN SINGH B.S.F.

Raksha Medal - Vacant

Sangram Medal - Unnamed

Sainya Seva Medal with Himalaya Clasp - 4029729 RFN. M.S.BISHT, GARH. RIF.

25th Independence Anniversary Medal - Unnamed

20 Years Long Service Medal - Vacant

9 Years Long Service Medal - Vacant.

I have not doubts as to the authenticity of this group due to the general look of the mount and the fact that I purchased this from a very reputable dealer from India. I must admit that if I were to see the Samar Seva to Madan Singh of the B.S.F. and the Sainya Seva to M.S.Bisht of the Garwal Rifles offered separately I would never guess they belonged together. My source in the Punjab informs me that the soldier's full name is Madan Singh Bisht.

I hope you like my new addition, I think it shows a lot of service, including in the combat zone of the 1965 war between India and Pakistan, service during the 1971 war also between India and Pakistan, service in harsh conditions (Himalaya Clasp) as well as at least 20 years in the service of his country.

Regards

Brian

[Brian Wolfe]

Here is a shot of the back of the mount. Usually this tells you that the mount is authentic. I have seen several groups offered on eBay consisting of all unnamed medals on new ribbons and glued onto a medals broach pin. They look all to "new" to be the real deal, so beware of these if you are looking to add some groups from India to your collection.

Regards

Brian

[Ed_Haynes]

An interesting and VERY strange group. Going from BSF to a military unit strikes me as very (VERY!) odd. A shame that, in all this, there are only two named medals. And the name is not that uncommon, so ....

[Brian Wolfe]

Hi Ed,

Yes I was told the name is not uncommon. From the looks of the group I would say it was mounted up quite a while ago. So I would think that if the two named medals are not to the same person then this has not been something put together lately.

Do you think this move from the B.S.F. to the regular military impossible or just unlikely?

I have another group that came with an unnamed 1950 Police Independence medal. The dealer (whom I trust completely) told me that the dealer he got it from (perhaps room for trust issues here) insisted that all seven medals were to the same person. I mounted up the six medals I was comfortable with and mounted the 1950 Police medal on its own with a note on the back of each mount noting this.

I will post this group with its "additional medal" later for comments.

Regards

Brian

Edited March 22, 2009 by Brian Wolfe

[Ed_Haynes]

It isn't that uncommon for someone to go from the army to the police. Not that uncommon if they can't manage the DSC. But, in most regiments, going the other way around would be a serious detriment to enlisting. Maybe the Garhwalis would take an ex-copper, but many regiments wouldn't, even if dad were a regimental veteran. Most would be too old anyway. Enlistment is an honour and India has never had conscription.

Since everything has happened at least twice in India, I won't say "impossible" but the tale seems highly HIGHLY unusual even if the group felt 100% pukka.

Some of our "friends" in the Punjab have gotten very very good in making aged groups. They aren't stupid enough to bring a all-tailors-copies group to market.

Edited March 22, 2009 by Ed_Haynes

[Brian Wolfe]

That's interesting indeed, Ed. Having always lived in a country where almost anything is possible regarding career changes I was not aware of these barriers in India.

Unlike some collectors who will INSIST their group is that one out of ???? and go on and on with silly arguments supporting their "wish" I'll consider this one as suspect at best. This is one time where the photo is much better than the group itself. The ribbons are quite faded and there are stains where your fingers would hold the mount as you pined it to a uniform or jacket. The metal mounting bar is also wearing through the backing material. It would seem to be a lot of work for what little this group brought the original seller, taking into cosideration the fellow I bought it from would be making a profit as well.

Oops, it looks like I just posed my own "silly argument".

However these were the details that lead me to think this might be a righteous group.

Regards

Brian

[Ed_Haynes]

Had it been army first, then police or even BSF, I'd have no qualms. Who knows, it could be legit. But just too many questions are raised for me to be entirely comfortable. And I know how most of the officers I know (some of whom have been in service from before 1947) would feel about a policeman entering Their Regiment.

[Brian Wolfe]

Had it been army first, then police or even BSF, I'd have no qualms. Who knows, it could be legit. But just too many questions are raised for me to be entirely comfortable. And I know how most of the officers I know (some of whom have been in service from before 1947) would feel about a policeman entering Their Regiment.

Hi Ed,

If this was a Canadian group I could argue with you but India is a whole different world and I accept what you are saying as gospel.

Here I've know several people who have started with the police and then went into the armed forces and of course the other way around.

That makes the other group I mentioned even more suspect. Actually not really "suspect" but actually bogus. Good thing I didn't pay for a group of 7, the dealer was also doubtful and threw the 1950 Police Independence in with the deal. What I am left with is a authentic group of 6, all named, so in that deal I've done alright.

Thanks again for your opinion it is greatly appreciated.

Brian

[Ed_Haynes]

I know the feeling, Brian. Much of it is provenance.

While it may be , I had doubts about this group, but as I have come to know more, from multiple sources, about how it came to market in New Delhi, the better I feel. Less than 100%, but good enough.

MTN-807628 Sepoy Nanda Ram, Royal Indian Army Service Corps (Motorised Transport) - later Indian Police

Everything but the Independence Medal 1950 is named. Remounted (as usual, back then). The idiot mounted the 1950 medal backwards though!!

Edited March 22, 2009 by Ed_Haynes

[Brian Wolfe]

Hi Ed,

I think your post is right on topic.

Here is the group of six that I was tralking about. Because of the reservations regarding a policeman getting accepted into the military I have mounted the single 1950 Police Independence Medal on it's own with a notation on the back of both mounts for future caretakers on my treasures.

The fellow I purchased this from was also sceptical about them belonging together even though the dealer he purchased it from insisted this was a group of seven. I paid as if it were a group of seven but since all of the military medals are named I didn't mind.

The recipient of the group is:

1025419 LD GD AJIT SINGH, A.C.

Do you have any suggestions as to the rank? I thought perhaps the GD was "General Duties".

Regards

Brian

[Ed_Haynes]

My guess would be that the 1950 "Independence" Medal is his father's. If it is in any way related.

Work out the ages. Won't work!

GD = General Duties. I think. That'd be my guess too. A semi-non-combatant assigmnent? But a Lance-Dafadar?? A NCO equivalent of a NCE?

[Brian Wolfe]

My guess would be that the 1950 "Independence" Medal is his father's. If it is in any way related.

Work out the ages. Won't work!

GD = General Duties. I think. That'd be my guess too. A semi-non-combatant assigmnent? But a Lance-Dafadar?? A NCO equivalent of a NCE?

I never thought about it being his father's, that would account for the original dealer saying they belonged together.

I had looked at the ages before and though they were "tight" but would work. so just now (with the help a a good book on the subject ) I did the math again and I agree, Won't Work!

The rank of Lance-Dafadar was on my mind but didn't seem right to me.

What other field of medal collecting has so many mysteries? On the other hand what other field is worth researching?

I'm only kidding Imperial, TR and Soviet guys.

Regards

Brian