Father and son Colonial Long Service

[Mossy]

It's been far too long a while since i was on here last, but i'm back now and thought i'd start things off with my lastest auction win: A father and son pair of Colonial Long Service medals. or, to be more precise, the fathers Officers Decoration and the sons Medal. Also included is the original miniature of the Officers Decoration. Details are:

Fathers Officer Decoration: Major J. W. Castine, dated to 1902. One of 8 awarded to the South Australian Militia forces.

Sons Medal: Lieutenant C. H. Castine 23rd Barossa Light Horse.

Now, at the moment, i have not found any further information on the father but a quick search on the Australian War Memorial site (www.awm.gov.au) shows a Claude Clement Castine of the 2nd Mounted Rifles Contingent (a South Australian Formed Contingent) at the rank of Lance-Corporal or, according to Murray, a Sergeant having served in the Boer War. IF this is our fellow, he could be entitled the QSA with the following clasps: Cape Colony, Belfast, Orange Free State, Transvaal, Johannesburg, Diamond Hill.

For the moment, this is all the information i have but with this kind of lead, well, i could hardly leave it at that could i?

Sam.

EDIT: Worth noting that the Barossa in question is a prominant area of South Australia. Whoops. :speechless:

Edited June 5, 2009 by Mossy

[Mervyn Mitton]

Sam - I'm surprised that members seem to have missed your post - I was thrilled to see these two awards ! Both officers' and with such limited numbers in the issue, makes them rare and valuable. The South Australian contingent was - if I remember correctly - quite a small one. Having landed in Capetown they would have moved , by railway, through the OFS and then Belfast and the other Transvaal battles. There must be local books that cover their exploits - and your research will probably be more effective in Aust. archives. Hopefully, though, one of the members will have access to record books - they never fail to amaze me with the info. they come-up with. Best wishes Mervyn

[Mossy]

Thank you Mervyn, and you're quite correct, it was a small contingent, some 119 in fact with 4 casualties. There is such information, but our nations obsession with Gallipoli tends to relegate our contribution to the Boer War to a small, dusty corner of history making sources difficult to locate. Not going to stop me searching of course! What has puzzled me however, is the Lieutenants medal. If he was an officer, why has he recieved the medal not the Officers Decoration? The awarding rules mentioned in 'Australians Awarded' do read, however, "The recipient can be of any rank, but if an officer he would not have had the time required in the commissioned rank to qualify for the Officers Decoration." This could indicate he did in fact serve in the Boer war as a sergeant or lance-corporal and got his promotion to lieutenant, and medal, later. If anyone with more knowledge of long service award regulations could confirm this, it would be greatly appreciated.

All the best,

Sam.

[Mervyn Mitton]

I think Australia was the same qualification as Sth. Africa - 10 years, with war service counting double. He may well have qualified before the Boer War - or, as you rightly say - was probably commissioned towards the end . Would be worth drawing papers - if they are available. Brett Hendy may be able to help - he is very good on his research.

(I'm an ex-Aussie - was brought up in Melb. and Sydney.)

[Arthur R]

What has puzzled me however, is the Lieutenants medal. If he was an officer, why has he recieved the medal not the Officers Decoration? The awarding rules mentioned in 'Australians Awarded' do read, however, "The recipient can be of any rank, but if an officer he would not have had the time required in the commissioned rank to qualify for the Officers Decoration." This could indicate he did in fact serve in the Boer war as a sergeant or lance-corporal and got his promotion to lieutenant, and medal, later.

It certainly fits. The medal was for 20 years service irrespective of rank, whereas the decoration was for 20 years service as a commissioned officer. AFAIK, Anglo-Boer War service didn't count double, only WWI service did.

Someone who was commissioned after a period of service in the ranks would therefore have qualified for the medal first, and only have qualified for the decoration if he'd continued to serve until he reached the 20th anniversary of his commission.

On the face of it then, it looks very likely that Lt Castine did serve in the ranks before being commissioned - given that after 20 years service he was only a lieutenant, he may have been commissioned fairly late in his career. For him to have qualified for the decoration, he may have had to serve quite a number of years longer, which he may not have wished or been able to do.

[Mossy]

Arthur R: Thank you, i wonder how many sets exist out there that contain both the medal and the decoration? It'd require a serious amount of service, but i'm sure some would have racked up such time.

I know i posted this some time back, but thought i'd add it here as well. It's another Colonial LSGC medal to another South Australian. This one is named to A Lindsay, a gunner in the South Australian Artillery. The medal was awarded on the 04/07/1905. Full naming: "32 GUNNER A. LINDSAY S.A. AUS. FIELD ARTY. 4.7.05".

Andrew Lindsay was born on the 17th of April, 1857 in Adelaide (South australia) to Robert and Mary Lindsay. His wife was Jane Skemmer Lindsay (Nee McKinley) and he was a Presbyterian.

He enlisted in the South australian Volunteer Field Artillery, a part time militia, in 1880 to the camp at Fort Glanville. The SAVFA would later change its name to the Australian Garrison Artillery in 1901 due to federation (Boo!)

His long service medal, only entitlement, was awarded on the 8th of July, 1905 for 20 years part time service.

Here's a link to a pretty good site about Fort Glanville, lots of photos and a '360 degree tour':

http://www.communitywebs.org/FortGlanville...t_Glanville.htm

If anyone else has any Colonial LSGC medals to show, please add them. And i'm not just talking about Australians only, any outpost of empire is welcome here!

Sam.

[Mervyn Mitton]

Thanks Mossy - another very interesting post. How do you find all these to South Australia - do you have connections there ? When I lived in Aust., Sth. Aust. was always known as the 'wowser' State ... it was just so 'boring'....

As for 'boo' to Federation, it was the only thing that held Aust. together. Perth is 2000 miles from Adelaide and another 1000 to civilisation in Melbourne !! I always expect to read one day that W.A. has become it's own republic. Sth. Africa is a little the same in this regard - a few major cities strung out around a big country.

Hope you are working on that posting on old exploratory travels in central Aust.?

[Mossy]

Mervyn: Actually, its just coincidence these three are all South Australian. I've been desperatly hunting one to a Western Australian (My home state) but with very little luck which unsuprising as WA has the lowest issues of any state and recieved none before Edward VII. But what i wouldn't give for one! These medals were actually pretty hard to find before, especially over here, but more have gradually appeared in recent times.

Perth had now overtaken Adelaide for wowsers, being dubbed 'Dullsville'. Although i'm reasonably negative about federation, i don't really do so seriously, i couldn't imagine a divided Australia. Friendly internal rivalry is quite fun actually.

Are you refering to the postings on the 40th Regiment, regarding the exploratory travels? If so, more is on its way, but i'm verifying certain locations and dates. Early Australian records are often badly recorded, although what makes it worse is when recent historians have rewritten them with their own agendas.

Sam.

[Mervyn Mitton]

You'll find a set to WA - be positive.. Over the years I always had a 'wish' list for Police items - and by the time I stopped collecting I had found most of them - just takes patience and sometimes - deep pockets ! We have the same thing here in SA with inter Provincial rivalry - Durban is known as 'the last outpost' (of Colonialism) so, we all 'hate' Capetonians' - but only in fun.

I enjoyed your posting on the Regt.- a little deep for me, but well researched and interesting. I had thought originally that you were going to write on early explorations throughout Australia

[Mossy]

I am, after all, i never thought i'd find a Victorian era officers decoration and after the above set, well, much rejoicing!

Ah, well if you're interested in exploration, that's easy! Another one of my interests there, let me put a bit of stuff together and i'll post something in the next few days. In fact, worth noting are the similarities between exploration in Australia and South Africa, but i'll post more on that elsewhere.

Sam.

[Mossy]

A member on another forum, a fellow Aussie, has supplied me with some more information on the Castine family. I'm suprised by what's come to light, and suprised no one else ever found it either as this sort of info usually adds a premium to these medals.

JW Carstine was born in Plymouth, Devon on 26/5/46 and died at Royston Park (buried at Auburn) on 13/6/39. He started off as a storekeeper and stock valuer and ended up a politician. He married Nannie Barkla on 16.12.68 with son Ernest arriving the following year. EW Carstine (One of his sons, and another politician) died on 8.2.1955. I was curious about his quick succession of marriages, but his first wife died 28/6/22. He then started a family at 52!

There are also several photos from the SA library that were found by my friend, to whom all credit and many many thanks must go to, Jon chittleborough. The wording of the captions has been retained unchanged.

Ministers controlling education in SA : John William Castine

Portrait of John William Castine who was Minister for Education from 12 May 1893 to 16 June 1893. From a pictorial composite entitled 'Ministers controlling Education - South Australia 1874-1902' - the entire composite can be viewed by doing a number search on B 6725.

ca.1902

[Mossy]

John William Castine

Lieutenant John William Castine

1926

Yes, the date and the rank are strange, though i've yet to find out why. It could be it is wrongly named and is in fact his son, or at some point was heavily demoted, can't imagine why though. No idea on the badge on his jacket, i'm planning a trip to Adelaide so will have to stop in and try to get a close look at the original. Any ideas though, despite quality?

Edited September 13, 2009 by Mossy

[Mossy]

Parliamentary Rifle Match

Photograph of a large composite photograph in the shape of a plaque, commemorating the Parliamentary Rifle Match held in August 1889. The competition (seven shots at 400 and 500 yards range, Wimbledon scoring) was between representatives from the Legislative Council and the House of Assembly, and was won by the former. In additions to individual portraits of the participants, their individual scores are also recorded. To see the individual images do number searches on B 39101/1 to B 39101/12.

1889

Unfortunatly, i can't find the individual images, so he's in there somewhere as are his scores, so for the moment we won't know just how accurate he was. :P

[Mossy]

Lastly, courtesy of the Australian War Memorial (Fantastic research and verification site!) Lieutenant J W Castine's sword (Note the Lieutenant part.) Copied as usual, i hate the idea of mis-translations on my part, hence the copy and past approach and full sourcing.

Interesting to note it states he is a member of the House of Assembely which means he was on the winning team of the above competition!

ID Number: REL/19530

Title: British Pattern 1827 Officer's Sword and Scabbard : Lieutenant J W Castine, South Australian Rifle Volunteer Force

Maker: Unknown

Object type: Edged Weapon or Club

Place made: United Kingdom

Physical description: British Pattern 1827 Rifle Officer's sword and scabbard. The hilt has a bronzed steel Pattern 1827 three bar half basket guard with a crown over a stringed bugle cartouche badge and a brass wire bound fishskin grip. The slightly curved Pattern 1845 blade has a single fuller to each side and etched for three quarters of the length. On the right side there is the royal VR cypher and a banner with J.W. CASTINE. The left side has a banner with SOUTH AUSTRALIAN RIFLE VOLUNTEER FORCE and on the ricasso the miltary outfitter's name of HOBSON & SONS LITTLE WINDMILLS LONDON. The steel scabbard originally had a bronze finish to match the guard and has two loose hanger rings on bands at 2 and 10.5 inches from the throat.

Summary: This sword was used by Lieutenant J W Castine, an officer of the South Australian Rifle Volunteer Force. Castine was a member of the SA House of Assembly 1884-1902.

Copyright: Status to be assessed

Related subject: Scabbards; Swords

Related unit: South Australian Military Forces

Related place: Australia: South Australia

Related conflict: Colonial Period, 1788-1901

[Mervyn Mitton]

Mossy - as you say seems old for the rank. However, you know it was a small unit, so probably didn't rate a higher rank - and in the old colonies it was a prestigious thing to be a local officer. Hope you can 'pin' him down in Adelaide. The info. you have turned up is certainly worth the effort you have put into the enquiries. Please let us know progress.

[Mossy]

Another one to join the ranks! Picked this up in a recent auction and it's winging its way over to me as we type.

Another EDVII issue, this time to "546 SPR. H. MORTON. AE. 4.4.08". A Sapper from the New South Wales branch of the Australian Engineers, with service in the New South Wales Engineers prior to federation. These guys were kept very busy over the entirety of their existence, fortifying ports and other stategic points along the coast. The N.S.W. engineers would have been working in N.S.W. prior to federation, but just before and after federation they would have been sent to other states (Usually Western Australia and Queensland and the northern part of South Australia, which would later become the Northern Territory.) to help their defence efforts. A point worth noting is the defences of Sydney harbour was never really finished and was constantly in either a state of disrepair or undergoing a change in methods of defence (The 'keep him out' or 'lure him in' approaches were juggled from decade to decade.)

With a date of award on the 4th of April in 1908, Morton would have to have served since at least 1888, definetly a very busy time.

More research forthcoming.

Sam.

[Brian Wolfe]

Very nice medal and great research.

I've alway liked Edward VII medals but the bank account just won't stand me collecting everything I like.

I for one look forward to reading more.

Regards

Brian

[Michael Johnson]

Here's the only one I have. Capt. R.B. Johnston 51st Regiment.

There's a bit of a story here. The 51st were the Soo Rifles, and Johnston was promoted to Captain and became the first Adjutant on the creation of the Regiment rank as of 15 November 1913. He had previously been in the 97th Algonquin Rifles, also in Sault Ste Marie.

He was appointed a Tempy Captain CEF in 1917, but there are no online papers, and in fact he spent the whole of the war in the Soo. In 1917-18 he is shown as O.C. Canal Guards, and Sault St Marie Guards. There is a canal on the Canadian side of the border, but much amaller than the American locks.

An interesting sidelight is that I had an inquiry about the Canadian Forestry Corps, as a pal on the 1914-18 Forum sent me the following:

Sergeant 8040, Thomas William Johnston, 2nd (Eastern Ontario) Battalion died on 23rd January 1917, age 29. He was the brother of Captain J.H. Johnston, 2nd-in-Command of No.11 Company, Canadian Forestry Corps. The brothers were the sons of the late Thomas and Mary Johnston, of Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario.

Recovering from wounds received in France, Sergeant Johnston was on leave and visiting his brother at a Forestry Camp in south-west Scotland. On the afternoon of 23rd January 1917, he was mortally wounded in a shooting accident and died later that evening.

Captain J.H. Johnston was Robert's twin brother, and the Sergeant his brother as well.

[Michael Johnson]

And here's the back.

My thanks to fellow collector Rev. Phil Miller of the Soo, who did much local research for me.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Michael Johnson

[Mossy]

Michael, fantastice medal and research! I haven't found a Colonial LS&GC to a man with war service (Though there is one possible.), though in most colonies war service counted as double time. It seems that alot of these men were kept for home defence rather than sent out. I have seen a couple of examples where the recipient has had war service, but i didn't get much of a look at them to determine how they worked regarding years of service and what units they were attached to.

Come on people, there must be more of these hiding in peoples drawers or shoeboxes or wherever you keep your medals!

Cheers,

Sam.

[Michael Johnson]

Phil was even able toget me Johnston's work record from the paper plant where he worked. Had an accident in 1944 and went on Workers' Compensation.

I had a broken group to a Foord in the York Rangers - and an original in the 4th Bn. CEF. Colonial Auxiliary Forces non-swivel, and his Victory Medal. That would be a case where his double-time speeded up his medal.

[AJHaslett]

Very nice examples. I really like these myself.

I have a few examples. Once I get my photography capability set up, and have a bit of time, I plan to photograph some of my collection so should, hopefully, have some to share.

Cheers,

Adam

[Mervyn Mitton]

We shall look forward to seeing them Adam. I always think they are an attractive medal.

[Nightbreak]

Someone wants Colonial Auxiliary Forces Decorations and LS Medals? I've had several come through my hands.

And Michael, if you're here, I want to know more about Foord's CAFLS

[ukok]

Very nice medal and great research.

I've alway liked Edward VII medals but the bank account just won't stand me collecting everything I like.

I for one look forward to reading more.

Regards

Brian

I like them too, though always think of Sir Clement Freud when i see Edward's profile.