Belgium Belgian Croix de Guerre's

[Tim B]

Here's a question; We have seen examples of French CdG where the veteran had a silver version made for wear. Not official as far as I know, but they did exist.

So, what about Belgium? I ask, as a auction ended today for a rather nice looking example in silver and the details tell me the piece is not just a cheap cast copy. With that said however, looking at the sword quillians and the finials on the bottom of the cross arms (2nd PIC), are those signs of casting? Also, note the lions on the ribbon.

So, is this another case like the French, where silver versions were available on the market for veterans to purchase?

Tim

Edited September 7, 2009 by Tim B

[Tim B]

Close-ups. Correct Albert "A".

What do you think?

Tim

[speedytop]

Hi Tim,

I don't think, that it is "silver", it is a bright bronze.

And one can find many variations, in the crown, in the lion, in the "A", in the swords, etc.

Uwe

[Tim B]

Hi Uwe,

Uh, the pictures look silver, not bronze at all. I tend to agree that real silver should have toned much darker over time than the set we see in the PIC, but I can't say exactly when the set may have been produced and if the item is real silver or bronze that was silvered by some means.

I can't imagine a jeweler taking the time to produce such an example out of real silver and then leave the sword details (quillians) in such poor shape, but I just don't know here.

My questions really center on: Were there after-market silver pieces made for veterans, similar to the ones we see some French veterans had made?

Of course, the same seller also sells the Polish WWI Victory Medal as original, so that might say it all.

Regards,

Tim

Edited September 7, 2009 by Tim B

[speedytop]

Hi Tim,

please excuse, but I say once more, that it is bronze and not silver, also the left piece is even more bronze than silver, it is just playing a little bit with colours :

Uwe

[Tim B]

Umm, appears I have struck a sour nerve here and that was not my intention when asking the simple question of "Did Belgian veterans also have silver after-market CdG made?"

Uwe, you speak with much certainty here and I have to ask; Are you the seller or the buyer here? Did you communicate with the seller and if not, how can you be so certain?

Anyone can manipulate PICS as you have done with the three side by side comparison shots of the same medal, but lets take a look at the PICS I initially posted.

- First, the PICS are as is from the auction, I didn't change the tone or saturation on them; they are as "silver-looking" as they were on the auction.

- Second, if you look at the ribbon, you'll notice the colors are bright and correct for the CdG. If the PIC had been off (bronze showing silver), then the ribbon wouldn't be so correct IMO.

- Third, the lion devices on the ribbon appear to be one gold and one silver. Note the silver one, it is the correct color and tone IMO for a period silver piece that has aged over these many years.

So, I have to ask why the medal itself would be so off in color while everything else is spot-on? I do know what aged silver, bronze, and even gold looks like and IMO, this medal is not aged bronze unless the photo has been drastically played with; but, thats my opinion.

I do not have a vested interest in this piece or I would have bid on it, which I did not. I am merely asking the question if original items existed.

Anybody (else)?

Tim

[speedytop]

Hi Tim,

I will make it short. I'm only interested in the historical truth. And I can see a bright bronze version. Could it be, that the seller had the wrong colour configuration?

I never heard something about a silver version.

Regards

Uwe

[Tim B]

Hi Uwe,

Then our goals are the same, just to arrive at the truth.

I have no idea what the seller might have done to the PICS, if anything. As I did not bid or win this auction, I would imagine the seller would not comment or reply to questions at this point. He has some items that seem to be original and of course some that are clearly not, so I will elect to avoid this one.

Like you, I have never heard or read anything pertaining to silver versions (official or unofficial) of the Belgian Croix de Guerre, but I certainly don't claim to know everything on the French or Belgian awards either, so maybe someone else can give a more definitive answer.

Tim :beer:

[Gldank]

They look like light bronze to me too. After collecting Belgian orders and medals for many years, I have seen many strange things done by veterans over the years. Special order items certainly could have been done in silver if the veteran wanted to pay for it. I have seen several minature Belgian CdGs done in silver, even one done in gold with diamonds but the workmanship was of fine quality. Since bronze is the norm (official), I would think a special made silver sample would have a silver mark on the suspension ring and the seller would have been happy to notify sellers of that fact. My vote is that what you see is a bronze sample.

Edited September 9, 2009 by Gldank

[Tim B]

Wow, I must admit, I'm surprised. I tried like hell to manipulate the PICS to get that piece looking bronze and I just couldn't do it without distorting the rest of the medal completely off color and even then, the color wasn't really bronze enough IMO.

Usually, all you have to do is play with the saturation or toning (sometimes the hue) and you can get close to what the original colors would be. I do this often as most sellers either enhance the shot to make the colors or details come out and you end up with something less than expected, so you learn the hard way. On this one, I just couldn't get it to go bronze and in hindsight, should have asked the seller, but I just wasn't that interested. Oh well.

I do understand and agree with your comment that IF the piece had been made out of real silver, the quality would have been better and if there were any content marks, the seller probably would have used those to boost the price, if he knew what to look for of course. His auction description actually referred to it as the Military Cross, and not the Cdg or War Cross. Of course the Military Cross is bronze & black enamel; same design but the ribbon is different.

So, the way it looks, no one has seen any regular size pieces made out of silver for these Belgian Cdg's and thats what I needed to know.

Many thanks you two! Where is everybody else?

Tim

Edited September 9, 2009 by Tim B

[belgoman]

Hallo there, just going through old posts and want to answer this one.

The croix de guerre 1914-1918 also exists in gilted silver as can be seen in the site :

http://www.medailles1914-1918.fr/belgique-croixda.html

They were generally offered to top (high ranking) officers by their staff, of home city.

I have also seen gilted brass crosses (ad for the croix de l'yser)...

Hopes this helps to answer your questions...

regards, Belgoman

[Gldank]

Very nice! Thank you Belgoman.

[lambert]

Exactly, I knew that kind, Silver gilt (deluxe models).

There are many variations of manufacture, as well as luxury models in precious metals: silver, vermeil, gold (this last I must confess I never saw.)

lambert

Edited March 17, 2012 by lambert