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The reverse of the photo.A translation of the writing would be much appreciated.

Many thanks,Martin.

Super photo Martin. Very interesting to see a torpedomans metal insignia worn on the shoulder strap of the grey uniform. Most unusual.

The inscription is along the lines of -

"For my dearest darling, sweet little wife, in boundless love and eternal loyalty, from your dear Husband".

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Thanks for the translation Gordon.

I also find it unusual to see the Destroyer badge on the grey uniform?I guess i have always associated the uniform with the Coastal Artillery.

Regards,Martin.

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Not just coastal artillery. Every sailor had to undergo what was basically a common military training syllabus, the skills that every service person needed to have because whatever their intended role, i.e. every serviceman had to be able to fight if necessary. (Think of the Destroyer crews at Narvik who went on shore to support the Gebirgsjäger after their ships had been sunk)

So, every sailor underwent basic infantry training and wore field grey during this period, before going on to their specific branch and -in most cases- changing from field grey to blue.

Whether they retained a field grey uniform, or handed them back in when moving to a sea-service role, I don't know, but certainly just about every sailor would at some point have worn field grey.

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Hi Gordon,

very interesting information and thanks for that.I noticed that the photo was dated February 1945,Flensburg/Murwick.I wonder if this individual was taken from Destroyer duty to the defense of the Northern Ports,hence the grey uniform?

Regards,Martin.

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Very nice set - I do like these type of citations for the Destroyer (and Schnellboot) Badges. And a good signature to find on the EK citation - Admiral Lutjens of later Bismarck 'fame'.

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Looking at the date on the EK II citation he might of been awarded this for the invasion of Norway in April 1940. During that invasion Kondor was part of the Blucher group which consisted of Blucher, Lutzow, Emden, Kondor, Albatross & Mowe for the landings at Oslo which saw the Blucher sunk by shore batteries. Kondor carried approx 100 soldiers for the operation. Whether he was awarded the medal for something he did or as just part of an allocation to the Kriegsmarine is anybodies guess.

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Nice documents.

Always a thrill seeing some Norway-related Kriegsmarine items.

Rombak

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I'm not a major fan of identifying unmarked badges by the fittings used, so consider this one as by an unkown maker.

However, given the fittings used, would think that Deumer could be in the frame.

Nice early Tombak piece whoever made it !

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I'm not a major fan of identifying unmarked badges by the fittings used, so consider this one as by an unkown maker.

However, given the fittings used, would think that Deumer could be in the frame.

Nice early Tombak piece whoever made it !

Hi Gordon,

Very nice find (as usual)!

Interestingly, very very similar to a G.W.L. Destroyer, another Luedenscheid maker. (I don't have any umlauts on this computer!)

And I see what you mean, this hardware indeed matches Deumer's maker marked vertical pin Minesweeper badges.

The hardware usually found on the G.W.L. marked Destroyers matches that used on Deumer's horizontal pin minesweepers, so these two firms obviously either had the same supplier or shared between them. Makes it hard to know if this badge is by Deumer or G.W.L., or supplied to Deumer by G.W.L?

Come to think of it, this revelation also casts doubt upon the unmarked Deumer Minesweepers with this same setup, since now it's possible they could be by G.W.L. or supplied to G.W.L. by Deumer. A close relationship between the Wegerhoffs and the Deumers seems likely.

Best regards,

---Norm

Edited by Norm F

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Hi Gordon and Norm. Interesting, your badge appears to be the same as my partially de-nazified badge. I think I might have posted this before.

Richard

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Very interesting Richard. Although the pin on mine is soldered to a barrel, yours is the simple "wrap around" type which is far more typical of Deumer.

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Come to think of it, this revelation also casts doubt upon the unmarked Deumer Minesweepers with this same setup, since now it's possible they could be by G.W.L. or supplied to G.W.L. by Deumer. A close relationship between the Wegerhoffs and the Deumers seems likely.

Best regards,

---Norm

Hi Norm,

There are minesweepers (with the vertical needle pin) made by Deumer that are marked (L/11). I think that's why the concensus of the unmarked ones are also Deumer. The die characteristics front and back are consistent on their minesweepers as well.

Best Regards,

Tim

Here's a marked tombak piece with the L/11; note it has a replaced catched.

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Come to think of it, this revelation also casts doubt upon the unmarked Deumer Minesweepers with this same setup, since now it's possible they could be by G.W.L. or supplied to G.W.L. by Deumer. A close relationship between the Wegerhoffs and the Deumers seems likely.

Best regards,

---Norm

Hi Norm,

There are minesweepers (with the vertical needle pin) made by Deumer that are marked (L/11). I think that's why the concensus of the unmarked ones are also Deumer. The die characteristics front and back are consistent on their minesweepers as well.

Best Regards,

Tim

Here's a marked tombak piece with the L/11; note it has a replaced catched.

Hi Tim,

Yes I know there are Deumer L/11 marked both vertical pin and horizontal pin minesweepers with the same die characteristics. My point was that if G.W.L. and Deumer shared dies for the Destroyer or had some sort of working relationship that resulted in them both marketing near-identical badges, and since they're both known to use the same type of reverse hardware on various badges, then the unmarked minesweepers could just as well be by G.W.L as by Deumer.

Possible scenarios:

1) G.W.L. produces the Destroyer and the Minesweeper badges and sometimes marks the Destroyer, while supplying both badges to Deumer who occasionally marks the minesweepers.

2) The reverse: Deumer produces the Destroyer and the Minesweeper badges and sometimes marks the minesweeper, while supplying both badges to G.W.L. who occasionally marks the Destroyers.

3) They each have their own very similar production dies made from the same punch, resulting in two lines of unmarked badges that we need to tease out by very subtle differences in obverse details and by hardware variations (difficult since they both used standard Luedenscheid-available hardware components.

4) or G.W.L. never gets into the minesweeper business and content themselves with the other KM and other service combat badges they make...

Best regards,

---Norm

Edited by Norm F

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You lucky man Jan Arne, i've been looking for an invasion of Norway zerstörerkriegsabzeichen award to a torpedo boat crew member.

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Hi Norm,

Yes, hard to say and we may never know 100%. I know Deumer had period catalogs but, did GWL ever produce a catalog? It would seem they should have but, I have never seen one. It's possible that IF one exists, it could hold the answers.

Best,

Tim

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Great Grouping Jan! I love the badge document!!

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Hi Guys !

Unmarked Destroyer Badge made of zinc .

Sems to be "Ludensheid" design on this Destroyer .

Jan Arne

Edited by Jan Arne S

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