Victorian General's Uniforms

[TS Allen]

Hello all,

Every once in a while on sees a Victorian "general's" uniform for sale, I my experience, they're items to pass on, because there aren't any references I have that focus specifically on general's uniforms. General's uniforms also have bewildering variety.

So, I'd like the purpose of this thread to be posting of pictures of and discussion on general's and staff officer's uniforms. I suspect that it should get interesting!

(And so that there's no fear of going off-topic, don't hesitate to post biographical details!)

Also, does anyone have any image references for Victorian-era General Officer's mess dress?

Thanks,

~TS

Edited December 27, 2009 by TS Allen

[leigh kitchen]

Mess Dress for Field Marshal, 1900 Dress Regs - that for General, Lt Genearal, Major General & Brigadier Genearal is described as "As described for Field Marshal. The badges of rank are smaller than those described in paragraph 2, and the hilt of the sword is in gold embroidery".

[leigh kitchen]

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[TS Allen]

Okay, time to resurrect an old thread.

I've decided to finally go after the mess dress. It's ~$120 with shipping, in nice condition with stains that I will have to go through hell to try to remove. However, It'll be my highest-ranking British officer's uniform by a wide margin, and my only British mess dress, so I think it's worth it.

However, I think it must be made to later dress regulations. This is for a few reasons.

(1) The waistcoat is red, not blue.

(2) The shoulder boards are thin twisted cord, held on by Generals' buttons.

(3) The cuffs are straight 1in oak leaf lace.

I think mine must conform to later regulations? Does anyone have a copy of the 1906 regs? That's what this example is dated to.

Thanks,

~TS

[Stuart Bates]

TS,

I have done a quick scan of my DRs from 1883 to 1934 (there is no 1906 version) and it appears that Generals always had a scarlet mess jacket with a blue waistcoat. And with pointed cuffs to the jacket.

The Royal Horse Guards, the 3rd and 7th Hussars had blue jackets with scarlet waistcoats.

The thin twisted cords sound more like gorget patches for Generals and Field Marshals.

Can you supply a photograph of the mess jacket?

Stuart

[TS Allen]

Hello Stuart,

Here's the jacket:

http://www.wdmilitaria.co.uk/shop/viewphoto.php?shoph=11100&phqu=10

It allegedly belonged to MG JS Ewart. His bio, according to the site:

Joined Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders 1881; Egyptian War, including Battle of Tel-el-Kebir 1882; Nile expedition 1884-1885; Sudan Frontier Field Force 1885-1886; Aide-de-camp to General Officer Commanding, Scottish District 1893-1894; Assistant Military Secretary to Governor and Commander-in-Chief, Malta 1894-1898; Deputy Assistant Adjutant General, Western District 1898-1899; South African War 1899-1902; Assistant Military Secretary, Army Headquarters 1902-1903; Deputy Military Secretary, Army Headquarters 1903-1904; Military Secretary to Secretary of State for War, and Secretary of Selection Board 1904-1906; Director of Military Operations, War Office 1906-1910; Aide-de-camp Gen to the King 1910-1914; Adjutant General to the Forces 1910-1914; World War I 1914-1918; General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Scottish Command 1914-1918; retired 1920; Col, Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders 1914-1920

It's from War Department militaria, which in general is a great little militaria shop. I'm not sure about this item though, but, since I know nothing at all about British GO's uniform, I figured I'd ask. If it is correct, I'd love to have it, but, the tunic seems strange still.

Thanks so much,

~TS

Edited May 11, 2010 by TS Allen

[Stuart Bates]

TS,

just got back in from walking the dogs. This will take a bit of investigation. I misunderstood you as to the colour of the waistcoat.

Those stains are a real bugger, don't fancy your chances.

Back when I have something to add.

Stuart

[Stuart Bates]

TS,

I haven't been able to find any mess dress in the DRs from 1874 to 1934 that have General and Staff officers with a scarlet jacket and a scarlet waistcoat.

The following extract from the 1894 DRs, which is the same as the 1883 ones, comes closest to the jacket but the waistcoat is always blue. And the cuffs are always pointed.

The collar rank badge would indicate a Lieutenant, certainly not a General or above - crossed baton/sword etc. Collar rank badges were discontinued in 1880.

There were units that had scarlet for both jacket and waistcoat, the Royal Engineers for example, but I would have to say that this is not a General's mess dress.

Stuart

Edited May 11, 2010 by Stuart Bates

[Stuart Bates]

The 1894 DRs were the last before the 1900 which you have.

Stuart

[Stuart Bates]

TS,

I could suggest that you get more Dress Regulations if you are going to pursue officers uniforms and equipment. They are a very good reference for this sort of stuff but one must always remember, and I often forget, that the rules were not always followed.

I have a complete set of DRs from 1822 to 1934, at least I think it is complete, so I can always assist when needed. I don't have anything on EMs or ORs however.

Stuart

[TS Allen]

Hey Stuart,

Can you suggest any good sources for DRs? Or should I just keep an eye out?

Also, have you ever considered digitizing and possible selling digital copies of your set? I think collectors would pay handsomely for such a set, I know that I would.

Thanks,

~TS

[Stuart Bates]

TS,

one has to be mindful of copyright here. I have a couple of originals which I have given to www.youroldbooksandmaps.co.uk to reproduce in CD form, but the rest are available as reprints.

I suggest that you do a book search (www.bookfinder.com) to locate those copies that are still protected.

Stuart