Bob Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 http://sammler.ru/index.php?showtopic=51308 :whistle: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 For those interested, I've created a small database on the Soyombo medal with all known (at least, as far as i've been able to find) copies on the internet in recent years. Overall 30 entries ranging from nr 8 to nr 432 (!!!). Includes scans, qualification fake/good/unclear, and other details such as owner, where i found the scan, etc.. Typology is still an issue... due to unkown info, fakes, etc. - e.g. take a look at the link i provided to nr 425! It appears also that in a few cases I've seen duplicates of the same (fake) Soyombo... Am not going to post it in public so as not to give info to the bad guys, but happy to share with trusted members. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Going to revisit the Soyombo - first, regardig type 1, a good "base" - an authentic one on collectrussia.com: "Gold Soembo Medal of a Hero of Labor of Mongolian Peoples Republic, Type 1, Var 1, #24. Medallion is in solid 14 K gold and enamel, suspension device is in gold plated silver and enamel. Engraved serial number to the reverse. Medallion weighs 32.3 g (not including suspension device), and measures 34.3 mm in width, 38.2 mm in height including the eyelet. This is the earliest type and variation of the Gold Soembo, featuring riveted medallion and darker, nicer quality blue enamel than on the later issues. The gold Soembo emblem on blue background stands for prosperity, intellectual power, honesty, etc. Beautiful cherry red enamel on the suspension device, spectacular quality throughout. Very fine to excellent condition. The enamel on the suspension shows contact marks and minor surface flaking, no penetrating chips or repairs. The blue enamel in the center is nearly untouched. The gold rays show very little wear and their ridges are extremely crisp. The reverse is clean and nice. Includes original screw plate in gilded silver. The Gold Soembo was the Mongolian equivalent of the Soviet "Hammer and Sickle" star of Hero of Socialist Labor. Between 200 and 300 of the early variation have been issued." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 (edited) OK, benefit of having my shoebox full of treasures in house today is I can really take the time to review / compare in detail. I believe based on this and the comments in this thread that perhaps the small Hein Sonnenberg (who by the way, is also in touch with Battushig) catalogue is correct in that there are 3 types of Soyombos. Type 1 - Such as referred to in above post quoting collectrussia. The well known 3-rivets version with dark enamel. Based on the thorough review of all Soyombo's online, I believe that there will have been 400 produced (and issued?). Lowest authentic one seen is the 24 on collectrussia, highest one - in my eyes - the 373 which I have posted. This 373 was acquired from a trusted dealer who gave me a lifetime guarantee. In my database of Soyombos i have 23 sightings in that range (24-373) and all authentic ones are type 1. There does appear to be some variation... Ed quoted 41.35 and 41.25 grams (incl. suspension). My 373 is 39.0 grams (incl. suspension) and 32.3 excluding. This 32.3 is exactly on target with the collect russia nr 24. In other words, it could be that there is some manufacturing variation in between there (i.e. Ed's) which weigh a bit more. Type 2 - I have taken my 420 (which can be traced back to the most reliable dealer possible in UB) and 413 and both match the type 2 shown in Battushigs book (CORRECTION: including the screwpost but not the screw itself, because that is not shown in Battushigs book; in any case the type 2 in Battushig is very different from the nr "223" shown by Ed). They are also - after close analysis in hand - virtually identical in terms of color enamel, general shape, and also dimensions (38.2 height incl. eyelet, 36.4 width). The suspensions are 100% identical incl. the diameter of the screw (2.8mm vs. 3.9mm on my type 1). Supposedly (Sonnenberg catalogue) this type is made out of red gold rather than yellow gold. There is an oddity, being that my 413 weighs less than my 420. 413: 32.4 gr / 25.0 gr (in/ex suspension) 420: 36.5 gr / 29.0 gr This is because 413 is thinner. 413 which by the way also can be traced to the ultimate source in UB and, as we have seen with Type 1, manufacturing differences MAY potentially be the reason for weight differences. In my database I've seen no other potential speciments which match. I have seen Soyombo's wit numbers 425 and 432 but they are substantially different and raise many question marks (either fake or even more types than noted in this thread)... ADDITION: I suspect (but cannot confirm) that the type 2 in Battushig may actually be nr 415 instead of 115 (as it is shown in the book). This would - if correct - provide a 3rd datapoint for the type 2 is proposed above. I believe (but could be wrong) that others have commented about Battushig purposefully changing this specific serial nr in his book? Type 3 - I truely believe that the Soyombo misleadingly numbered 223 (in Ed's hands) is a type 3 (as indicated in Sonnenberg catalogue as gilt bronze) which - again - has been incorrectly numbered. I suspect the Soyombo on Sonnenberg's site is another such example (but left unnumbered). Bear in mind that there is a mismatch between the screws on the Sonnenberg example and the one Ed has. The type 3 appears to have considerably darker enamel on the suspension, much like type 1. Suspect this type is not numbered (generally). I realize above is just my opinion. Fact is we have various Soyombo's out there with people (incl. me) stating that the source of them should indicate they are real. This creates some confusion but it also gives food for though in getting to a refined typology... for the moment, I'm sticking with 3 types. The weight of type 2 appears to support it also being substantially gold (not as much as type 1). Would be interesting to get a weight on Ed's nr 223 (maybe i missed it somewhere in the thread, will have another look) to support that it is just gilt bronze and substantially deviating from all others in weight. Edited March 4, 2010 by Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Note - Vatjan in post 10 refers to the possibility of it being 415 instead of 115. On type 2, I would suggest that 420 would not be "low" for type 2 but perhaps the "high". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Not a very sharp picture, but here's (left to right) - type 1: 373 - type 2: 413 + 420 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Reverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Familiar (enought)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Remember, the weights of these 2 are different, yet they still look very very similar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Obverse (again: 413 vs 420) Flames look identical; so does the fact that the eyelet is slightly offcenter to the left on both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 And now back to 373 - type 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Last one for now again 373 for reference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolf Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 (edited) "Type 2 - I have taken my 420 (which can be traced back to the most reliable dealer possible in UB)..." I count 4 different hands, him (you mention above), me, a Chinese dealer, you... not counting the awardee, and maybe the possible "middle man", the one who got it from the awardee and sold it to the UB dealer you mention. Now, whatching back, I guess this Order have always been my less favorite, among all Mongolian Orders... Not sure why, probably just personal taste or so Just curious, you got it boxed? It was boxed when I got it and when it was gone. Dolf Edited March 4, 2010 by Dolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Hello Dolf, yes I got it boxed - in the exact same box that you had it in when it was in your hands. The Soyombo doesn't have the same eye candy appeal as say a SB or Lenin etc. but precisely because of its simplicity I think it is a timeless design. It'll never look "outdated" in my eyes. The issue with it (just like say the unselfishness medal) is that unless substantial new reliable information becomes available from UB, it will be impractical to continue acquiring these as it (at least for me) has become virtually impossible too often to tell the good from the bad out there. Anyway, I'd rather have research / info from archives and then learn that SOME of my collection is "bad" than to have no research at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted April 5, 2010 Share Posted April 5, 2010 <!--quoteo(post=73077:date=Apr 22 2006, 21:08 :name=Bob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bob @ Apr 22 2006, 21:08 ) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=73077"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Type 1 (two piece riveted construction) Low = 13 High = 242 Type 2 (one piece construction) Low = 420 High = ? ====================== I believe the above might need to be updated: - B's book shows 115 as a type 2; 420 would rather then be put as highest sighted - Recently 114 was on sale on eBay and this was a type 1 On a different note - rumor has it recently a mongolian hero star (NOT a labour one!) was sold by one of the major western dealers! Anybody on this forum the lucky person?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> TYPE 1 - № 7 I have heard Hero Star nr 1 is on the market... for 150K USD... A lot of money, but in this case it may actually be worth it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted September 7, 2010 Share Posted September 7, 2010 Here's an interesting item circulating through key dealer/collectors via email... incl. pic of a number on reverse! http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_09_2010/post-679-128388149077.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_09_2010/post-679-128388149803.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted September 7, 2010 Share Posted September 7, 2010 It looks, and apparently is, unawarded. http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_09_2010/post-679-128388156164.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_09_2010/post-679-128388156969.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted September 7, 2010 Share Posted September 7, 2010 http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_09_2010/post-679-128388162111.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_09_2010/post-679-128388163063.jpg Number 12... probably unawarded. Gives some support to idea that 10 or so were made/awarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted September 7, 2010 Share Posted September 7, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted October 8, 2010 Share Posted October 8, 2010 Photo #430048 H.Gombosuren is camel breeder and Hero of Labor Categories: Economy, Business & Finance, Labour Description: H.Gombosuren, a camel breeder and Hero of Labor from the Southern Gobi district. Location: Mongolia Date of event: 01.06.1981 http://visualrian.com/images/item/430048 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted October 8, 2010 Share Posted October 8, 2010 Marshal Ivan Konev and Chairman of the Council of Ministers of Mongolia Yumjaagiin Tsedenbal Categories: Politics Description: Chairman of the Council of Ministers of Mongolia Yumjaagiin Tsedenbal congratulating Twice Hero of the Soviet Union Marshal Ivan Konev on the title of the Hero of the Mongolian People's Republic. Location: Russia, Moscow Date of event: 01.12.1972 http://visualrian.com/images/item/676238 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted November 22, 2010 Share Posted November 22, 2010 Some additional data points: * Serial numbers >400 were awarded since 2000 * The Gold Soyombo Medal with a serial number 427 was awarded to General Tsede-Ish in 2006. He is the last entry in the blue sky bible (and this confirms that the number code at beginning of entry is NOT corresponding with the Soyombo serial nr!) * Also, I have a document to a Soyombo (posted somewhere here or on another site), it's awarded to Putsagiin Oyun, but the serial number (no surprise) has been altered and probably is more in the rage of 270-280... as the nr (424 if not mistaken) in the booklet could never have been awarded on the unaltered date of 1986 in the booklet - her profile then appears to be on page 101 of the blue sky bible (321.263) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 An item from the National Museum of History in UB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 http://www.paretski.com/product/527900/ thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 When in UB i had heard the story why Dandar had his Hero title/star revoked (if my memory doesn't fail me, he had shot some Russian soldiers stealing supplies, but because Dandar was so well respected he got away with a relatively light punishment and later got his title/star back - please correct me if wrong). Does anybody know the reason behind Tsedenbal having his title/star revoked (and reinstated)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now