A Cameronian in Victorian / Edwardian India.

[leigh kitchen]

Another thank you to Cris B for finding this one.

A soldier of The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles), briefly The Cameronians (Scotch Rifles) when formed in 1881 by amalgamation of the 26th Cameronian Regiment (raised in 1689) and the 90th Perthshire Light Infantry (raised in 1794).

There's a thread on The Cameronians here:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=23710&st=0&p=368526&hl=cameronians&fromsearch=1&#entry368526

The photograph was taken in India by the same photographer as this member of The Oxfordshire Light Infantry:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=42408

This man wears a KD jacket with cutaway front skirts & what appear to be gauntlet cuffs, echoing the cut of the doublet, black horn regimental pattern buttons bearing crown over stringed bugle within thistle wreath, green on black long service chevron attached by hooks & eyes to the lower left sleeve, green "Drummer's cords".

The breast pockets of his KD jacket have scalloped flaps, rounded at the corners & with a button at each corner - these are not of regimental pattern but perhaps a light coloured composition or horn?

Above the pockets are cartridge loops.

No collar badges or shoulder titles are worn.

His trews are of Douglas Tartan - tartan was adopted by the regiment upon formation in 1881, orignally "Government" or "Black Watch" Tartan, but in 1892 Douglas Tartan was adopted, the whole of the regiment wore the Douglas Tartan including Pipers.

The helmet is presumably dark green, with bronzed or blackened metal fittings, leather bindng around the rim, & silver or white metal insgnia. It looks like a Universal Helmet but is fitted with a pugaree, the badge sits low, on the pugaree, it prabably has a slider fitting as you'd expect with a pugaree badge - one end of the scroll stands proud enough from the helmet to overlap the chin chain.

The regiment wore Universal Helmets from 1882 - 1892, but with a mullet (star) in thistle wreath badge, the badge worn in this photograph is the mullet over name scroll as worn by Pipers at one time or another.

During the 1920's - disbandment in 1968, The 1st Battalion's Pipers wore ths badge in silver or white metal.

I don't know if this man is a Piper or Drummer, or if the badge is exclusive to Pipers & / or Drummers at the time.

Enough of my conjecture, now let's here from Stuart & Graham.

Edited February 17, 2010 by leigh kitchen

[Graham Stewart]

Again another unusual pattern KD jacket as described by Leigh, with the pockets being the unusual feature, with the double button. His bugle cords are dark green as were all bugle cords of non-royal regiments, but in the case he appears to be a drummer. A closer look at the lower sleeve of his left arm when blown up shows an additional attached item, which is surely the worsted drum in dark green cotton.

The helmet too is of an interesting pattern and actually looks like a Home Service pattern helmet, based on the strengthening feature around the outer edge, with a pagree fitted, all in Rifle green. The white metal badge I've seen on numerous occasions at militaria fairs, but was unaware that it was also worn with the pagree.

For one of the best websites depicting soldiers during this period visit "Soldiers of the Queen" at this link;-

http://www.soldiersofthequeen.com/

Edited February 17, 2010 by Graham Stewart

[leigh kitchen]

Are you sure re. the additional badge lower left sleeve Graham? I can't make one out (it was an interesting diversion blowing up the photo & trying to make out the design on the ring on his little finger).

I'm not sure my description of the buttons is right - perhaps crown over bugle or mullet over bugle, the crown, bugle, thstles coming later?

As usual, I don't have the books to hand.

[Stuart Bates]

I am not so sure that it is a Home Service Helmet, but that would certainly explain what a Green Cloth helmet was doing in India. But to me it has more the shape of the Foreign Service Helmet.

Graham, by the strengthening to the outer edge I presume you mean the leather edging to the brim. For officers this applied to the Foreign Service Helmet but I think the men had khaki drill edging. The ORs' HSH, of course, had all leather edging.

The HSH did not have internal hooks for attaching the chinchain or chinstrap whereas the FSH always did.

The hooks could have been added at a regimental/battalion level and the puggaree may hide the clues, i.e. the fittings for the chinchain rosettes.

I can't make out the seams - there were 4 on the HSH and 6 on the FSH. That may be a seam at 2 o'clock but can't see any others. Both styles of helmets had a seam at that position.

The badge is so low on the puggaree that I doubt it is of the slider variety. It is probably fixed to the puggaree itself and doesn't perforate the helmet shell. But then again, maybe the slider was shortened and inserted between pleats of the puggaree rather than between the shell and the puggaree. The badge sitting proud of the chinchain on one side would indicate that it was not firmly fixed in place. The ones I have sit firmly on the puggaree and are not easily shifted to the extent shown.

Help!

Stuart

Edited February 18, 2010 by Stuart Bates

[Graham Stewart]

probably to small to see, but there is an object attached to the uniform which isn't part of the sofa or curtain background. In my original post I said it was surely the drummers badge, but on reflection it should be on the upper arm and not lower, so am now wondering what this is.

Stuart - the helmet is a curiosity and I'm sure the edging here appears to be black(?) leather due to the sheen and would comply with materials used by Rifle regiments. Had it been of the same material like other FSH edging it would have blended in more easily.

India itself appears to a minefield regarding uniform and dress, with unusual items appearing. Ironically the red cloth 'V' section worn above the pagree by the Northumberland Fusiliers and a regular feature throught their history was itself only sactioned in India and not through the War Office.

[Stuart Bates]

Graham,

I agree it is almost certainly black. I did not mean to imply that it would be as for a normal FSH.

Stuart

[Stuart Bates]

Graham,

this is a bit off topic but in one of my references I found that the red cloth 'V' section worn above the puggaree by the Northumberland Fusiliers was officially sanctioned by the War Office on 23rd October 1903.

If you like I can attempt to get more details as I know the author of this reference.

I presume that the NFs with this helmet would have worn a khaki cover to provide camouflage during the 2nd Boer War.

Stuart

[Graham Stewart]

Graham,

this is a bit off topic but in one of my references I found that the red cloth 'V' section worn above the puggaree by the Northumberland Fusiliers was officially sanctioned by the War Office on 23rd October 1903.

If you like I can attempt to get more details as I know the author of this reference.

I presume that the NFs with this helmet would have worn a khaki cover to provide camouflage during the 2nd Boer War.

Stuart

I'm going purely off memory here as all my files are at home, but the first reference to the 'V' appears in the regimental "Digest of Service" and it was being worn in India long before 1903 and photo's show it worn during the Black Mountain Expedition. The reference to it came as a letter of sanction from the Governor General of India, which I'm sure pre-dates the WO by some years. Does your reference come from Denis Woods book?

[leigh kitchen]

I had looked at the dark area on the right sleeve & dismissed it as part of the design of the hanging in the background, but perhaps it is a badge Graham, it's standng rather proud if it is, but then it would be fastened by a hook & eye arrangement.

I know what you mean by the shape of the helmet Stuart, it seems rather bulbous for a HSH (I've fallen in line wth your terminology) but the lower part of the pagri is bulky, imagine the pagri removed & the helmet fits the bill for a HSH?

I wonder if there's a possibility that if the photo's not taken during the short period that the HSH was in wear by the regiment, HSH were retaned for wear by the Pipes & Drums etc in India as with the addtion of a pagri they resembled a sun helmet & added a bit of swank in comparison with the the drab looking sun helmets of the rest of the battalion?

Edited February 18, 2010 by leigh kitchen

[Stuart Bates]

Graham,

no my reference comes from Ron Kidd in an issue of the Formation Sign magazine of the Military Heraldry Society. If you like I can try to get more details from Ron.

Leigh,

the pagri is a marvelous example but I am not convinced that its removal would produce a HSH.

The HSH was replaced by the shako in 1890 but what would it be doing in India of a later time. I am sure that I read somewhere that the HSH was sometimes worn with a khaki cover - another troublesome fact.

Can anyone see the holes that would have accepted the HSH crosspiece for the spike?

The helmet may have added a bit of swank but would have been terribly hot in the Indian climate.

Any consensus on the date of the photo? According to regiments.org -

the 1st Battalion Cameronians were in -

Rhaniket from 1897-1899

Lucknow from 1899-1904

the 2nd Battalion Cameronians were in -

Rhaniket from 1889-1892

This would indicate the 2nd Battalion if it is indeed a HSH. But since I think it a FSH of the early 1890s then 1st Battalion again.

Stuart

Edited March 5, 2010 by Stuart Bates

[Stuart Bates]

The apparent absence of any holes, either for the crosspiece or the helmet plate, indicates either that the helmet is a FSH or a HSH direct from stores. Here I am assuming for the latter that the furniture and plate would have been added by the regimental tailor or armourer.

The 1st Battalion were in India 1894-1909, four years after the HSH was discontinued for them, and the 2nd Battalion were in India 1881-1895 so unlikely that they ever had the HSH.

I give in. This one is too hard. I don't know how or why he has such a helmet but I still think it is a FSH.

Puggarees were always bulky towards the bottom, that is the nature of the beast when many pleats are required. Puggarees could be up to 24ft (7.4m) long so no wonder they could be bulky.

Anyone got another dead horse to flog

Stuart

Edited February 18, 2010 by Stuart Bates

[Graham Stewart]

The apparent absence of any holes, either for the crosspiece or the helmet plate, indicates either that the helmet is a FSH or a HSH direct from stores. Here I am assuming for the latter that the furniture and plate would have been added by the regimental tailor or armourer.

The 1st Battalion were in India 1894-1909, four years after the HSH was discontinued for them, and the 2nd Battalion were in India 1881-1895 so unlikely that they ever had the HSH.

I give in. This one is too hard. I don't know how or why he has such a helmet but I still think it is a FSH.

Puggarees were always bulky towards the bottom, that is the nature of the beast when many pleats are required. Puggarees could be up to 24ft (7.4m) long so no wonder they could be bulky.

Anyone got another dead horse to flog

Stuart

This is the beauty of such a site as this, where we are able to view and comment on such unusual photo's as this. Unfortunately as far as the British Army in India goes it's a minefield of the unusual and leaves us members with years of collecting, research and knowledge scratching our heads when such oddments come along.

For some more stunning photo's of our Army in India, I recommend that you visit the link/website mentioned in my earlier post entitled "Soldiers of the Queen".

[Graham Stewart]

Like Leigh I'm at a loss and find it a really unusual helmet. I think what has us baffled is why should the Cameronians(a Rifle Regt) have a Rifle green FS helmet whereas I think that all the other Rifle Regt's to serve in India seemingly complied with dress regs and had the normal two FSH for wear - one in khaki and one in white???

Did the Cameronians do as Leigh suggests possibly place a special order for a helmet for wear by the band only and if so where was the order placed and with whom? Is it the basic HSH made to look like an FSH or an FSH dyed with the addition of black leather edging to give it a Rifle look?? I just don't know, but it's still a lovely photo and has been a good talking point.

[Stuart Bates]

Graham,

what you say is all present or correct. My background in software means that I need to know the answer, otherwise it just doesn't work!

This one is a doozy and I guess we will never know the answer. It is interesting to have the possibilities thrown around but...

Stuart

[Stuart Bates]

Graham,

I have visited "The Soldiers of the Queen" many times since I joined GMIC and it is a wonderful repository of historical photographs. I wish that I had taken a greater interest in photos rather than being so firmly focused on helmets.

But having said that I have a good collection of period photos, pity is that I feel constrained to use them because they were given to me "in confidence" by an author who will probably never publish!

Stuart

[Stuart Bates]

I was wrong on the badge. I just found one on Bluebell Militaria and the slider is almost at the base of the top point of the mullet.

Interestingly it is described as "The 1st Bn The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) Piper's headdress badge"

Stuart

[Stuart Bates]

I have emailed Bluebell asking if there was a difference between the 1st and 2nd Bn pipers' slider badge.

Let's hope I get an answer - I mean a helpful one

Stuart

[leigh kitchen]

I wonder if the helmets were picked up from another, foreign unit that this Cameronian served with - to kit out the band, something like that?

An old, fairly basic book I know, but according to Gaylor the regiment's pagr badge was the thistle wreath badge 2" wide, the pipers of the 1st Bn wore a 1 7/8th i" high mullet above scroll 1860 - 1921, & a

2 3/8th" high version 1921 - 68, the 2nd Bn a larger (3" wide) version of the "ordinary" thistle wreath etc badge.

A blackened version of the mullet & scroll badge in anodised (the scroll of the hone shown worn on the helmet in the photo is swallow tailed, this one isn't), & a thistle wreath badge in white metal, also a small version of the wreath badge in white metal & with slider, measuring about 2" rather than the normal 2 3/4", which it's been suggested is a pagri badge,nt & less delicate appearance to the pagri badge that Gaylor shows:

Edited March 5, 2010 by leigh kitchen

[Stuart Bates]

OK!!!!

I found this in William Jones & Co's, Army & Navy outfitters, catalogue of 1886 -

Helmets for India and Foreign Service -

The usual description of white , 6 seams etc. but "Rifle Regiments, as above with bronze furniture; some Rifle regiments have been allowed to wear their helmets covered black cloth, instead of white."

I hope this puts this thread to bed

Stuart

[leigh kitchen]

Well done Stuart - but the helmet shown does'nt have a cover?

[Stuart Bates]

Leigh,

it's just their use of English. They are saying that the helmet is black cloth covered rather than white. They were not responsible for producing "covers".

In fact most of what they say is a direct take from the 1883 DRs with some additions of their own.

Stuart

PS. I sent a question as to which regiments were allowed this helmet to the NAM.

[leigh kitchen]

Ah, gotcha - it seems strange to me that black was chosen rather than rifle green.

[Stuart Bates]

Leigh,

I suspect that Rifle Green was as close to black as made no difference. Here is my Cameronians Shako and I can't see any green there at all. I am afraid that the photo is a rather poor one but taking the shako into natural sunlight confirms me in my belief that it is black.

Stuart

[Stuart Bates]

Leigh,

I have just received a reply from Charlie at Bluebell Militaria - the one who has the badge.

He says - "I seem to have misled you regarding the pagri pipers badge. In the same circumstances it would have also been worn by pipers from the 2nd Battalion."

I still think it is the 2nd Battalion.

Stuart

[leigh kitchen]

Thanks,