Stogieman Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 I am always lothe to broach this subject. This badge is like the Aerial Gunner badge. There's plenty available for anyonw who wants to buy one. I have seen exactly 2 that I liked. This isn't one of the two..... but there's an awful lot about it that I like so I toss it out there for friendly debate! What do you think?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike K Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 Hi Rick,This is a hard one. One thing is for sure, it can NOT be compared to Juncker examples so let's keep those out of this discussion (apples v's oranges imo). There are many differences, mainly in the "central" detail of the artillery bursts, tank and "ground" features.There are Juncker marked examples of this type, however they are raybacks with shallow scoops behind the skull (crown marks too from memory) and I immediately put them into the same category as Juncker "crown" flight badges Meybauer flight badges with non-Meybauer pins (and shallow areas behind the crown).I have one with the same obverse design as yours Rick, but it has a very different hinge/pin arrangement. My example has a Meybauer-like main pin, but not an early Meybauer pin which tend to be thinnner and better formed than the later (30s) slightly chunkier pins. I wish Detlev had shown the Obverse of his early Meybauer example on the bottom left of P158 in his new catalogue - it would have helped immensely! Winkler has just sold one of this obverse design type; a hollow rayback example with Meybauer mark but not a Meybauer pin - it came with a Detlev COA as well (which seems to be the only provenance for one of the few accepted Juncker examples - I don't know of any example with direct German veteran provenance). I have other examples of this type on file, no two of which seem to have the same hinge/pin/catch arrangement. Some of them appear to be obvious poor quality fakes though.When it comes to this type I don't think there is hard evidence either way. Personally, there seems to be some indications that Meybauer is involved. Exactly what constitutes an original Meybauer is unknown to me. I feel my own example is of good quality so I live with the possibility that it is pre-40ish. This one also appears to be of good quality so maybe it's a pre-40 example (whether purchased by a qualified recipient or used as a store/museum display), maybe it's a high-end post-WW2 fake, I don't know.RegardsMike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted December 23, 2005 Author Share Posted December 23, 2005 Hi Mike, this one's not mine. I "liberated" the photo for sake of discussion. There's many things I like about the badge, but as I keep coming back, I notice things I don't care for at all, like the shape of the Death's head on the nose of this tank...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike K Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 Hi Rick,Yes, there is that, among other things - but is it a feature of this badge or an easthetic comparison to a Juncker?RegardsMike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted December 23, 2005 Author Share Posted December 23, 2005 Hi Mike, the seller states it to be a Juncker and therein lies a major issue. it's actually in a correct Juncker issue case. Case is real for sure, but the badge sure doesn't match up with juncker dies. So now comes the big question! Did Juncker use the same die for both types of badges?I cannot think of any plausible reasons why they would not. For example, the issue Aerial Gunner Badge used the same die to stamp out the bird/target piece whether stamped steel, or stamped silver. The slight variances that occur can be completely attributed to the two different materials, of two very different thicknesses, used to make the pieces. Now, when I initially saw this piece and discussed it with the seller, my feelings were right case, possibly right badge, just mismatched. But the more I study the badge, the less I am happy with it. Here's another boomerrang! There are REAL stamped silver badges for the pilot/observer in real silver. Cliche badge, but silver, instead of silver tin and they bear an almost identical 800 stamp in the pin as this tank badge. So, initially, my quick look and snatch of the photo was that the badge probably came from this same (still unidentified) maker... Differences on the wreath, skull, logs, shell bursts and background I can accept. The lack of the T?tenkopf on the front is what I am currently having a serious issue with. Interesting, n'est-ce pas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Lumsden Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 Despite the low numbers awarded, I think there must have been many makers of these badges. The original design was like this, with a Prussian TK....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Lumsden Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 based on the award certificate........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Lumsden Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 and worn by Dietrich during the pre-'35-ish period..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Lumsden Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 The commonly known pattern appears to have come in during the mid-1930s. Here's the one I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Lumsden Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 It's totally unmarked so I haven't a clue who made it - or when it was made. I just know the quality is that of a professionally made badge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Lumsden Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 It seems to be nickel, or nickeled brass. It's hollow, but with a backplate and 'blowhole'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Lumsden Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 The hinge area of the pin has some brass peeking through..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Lumsden Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 and the hook is pretty substantial.....although the pin has the dreaded 'pointy end'.Anyway, I don't know if it's 1930s or 1950s.....but I like it all the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dond Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 How does this one look?thanksDon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dond Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 The reverse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike K Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 Hi Don,Maybe you should mention that badge has a crown mark and an imo non-Juncker crescent moon marking.RegardsMike K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dond Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 Here is another one you might find interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dond Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 (edited) The reverse. marked 800 on the pin. Edited July 22, 2006 by dond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dond Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 Now for the interesting part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gor Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 Hi Rick,The same have offered to me half a year ago, then I saw one more such; as far as I know it came from Kiev . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 As a simple Reality Check, all sources have consistently stated since the 1930s that under 100 badges were awardedand yet there are, at any given moment1,237,618 badges in at least 96,456 "varieties" available.Those are odds that make me walk on by any and all of these... and always will.Extreme demand, wish fulfillment, and a retail market cannot beat those statistics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike K Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Hi,Rick, my understanding of this badge is that it was commemerative and that it was APPLIED for, not awarded. I have read that in the FIRST batch there were 100 or so badges, made by Juncker. Yes, reality check, the badge is rare - imo nobody can argue with that, certainly not me. I also don't think there would be that many variants, and when you look through the badges that are half-believable based on construction and details, there are NOT that many different/distinct types of obverse design for this badge - maybe only 3 or 4 of the large skull type (but I have not studied them in super detail because I have not seen many half believable examples). From what I've seen, believable examples (not the obvious glitzy eBay repros) do not actually appear on the market all that often, certainly much, much, much less frequently that believable Pilot's Badges.Further, although 100 is a firm number for the first batch, how many veterans may have obtained them after the first batch received theirs - either as replacements, duplicates or those who missed out on the first batch? How many were produced for display purposes, etc? I agree, even so, there still would not have been all that many genuine badges produced.And here's the big question, if only 100 were ever "authorised", why are there TWO distinct types of badge (totally different skulls) evident in period (pre-45) photos?RegardsMike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dond Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Hi Mike, what is your thought of the last badge shown?thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K. Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 I would agree with Rick R. on these. I have never seen one that I trusted...and I doubt in my lifetime I ever will....so, I just walk by them (after a cursory glance).Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Murphy Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 (edited) Here is one I would believe. Not sure where I got this photo, it might have been Weitze. Not the geatest quality photo by any means.Dan Murphy Edited July 24, 2006 by Daniel Murphy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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