Bronze BWM collection

[Thomas Symmonds]

Will has directed me to these two threads he started last year -

Great Britian:Medals of the British Empire, Honours and awards - Page 8

Lt Col Godley, CBE and Pte E. Albane

Would be nice if one could join up these threads through a type of "cut and paste" rather than have to click on links ... ?

Very interesting stuff Will.

Regards

Thomas

Edited July 25, 2010 by Thomas Symmonds

[Thomas Symmonds]

I found the article that Will is refering to -

"SOLDIERS WITHOUT REWARD

Africans in South Africa's Wars

by J S Mohlamme"

Link to SOLDIERS WITHOUT REWARD

Very interesting reading again - thanks Will.

Thomas

Edited July 25, 2010 by Thomas Symmonds

[Mervyn Mitton]

Very good points - thankyou Will. However, you say 27 were killed 'in the course of duty' - 'they' obviously decided the hundreds on the transport ship who drowned, didn't count ! There is now an official S.A. Award to commemorate the sinking - I showed it on the Lounge - Emblems of your Country.

[saumua]

Anyone ever seen one to the Fijian Labour Corps?

[Tony]

Well I've finally got round to buying a bronze issue BWM.

It's an example issued to a member of the SANLC and named to Pte. S Mabula. The BWM was his only entitlement according to his index card. Coloured soldiers of the SANLC didn't receive the Victory medal whether from one of the High Commission Territories or not.

After reading only very few BWMs were actually issued to this unit they must be rarer than the usual Chinese LC and Maltese Mule Corps examples I've seen. A lucky find for me. One to the Fijian Labour Corps would be a nice find too.

Can anyone tell me if Mabula is a common name or where in southern Africa it comes from? He attested in Bloemfontain but the issue of his BWM means he must have come from Swaziland, Bechuanaland or Basutoland. The latter territory being nearer to Bloemfontain I believe.

He arrived in France in 1916, was fined 10 shillings for disobeying an order in early 1917 and was shipped back to Africa later that year. His discharge is noted as OS, does anyone know the meaning of that?

Tony

[Bison]

Hi

I get this medal this week and I am very happy with it!!

Is there any chance to know the name of the Chinese #10107??

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2011/post-2068-0-19417000-1299871106.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2011/post-2068-0-97643300-1299871121.jpg

Thanks in advance for your help.

Aye

Bison

[Brian Wolfe]

Hello Bison,

That's a nice medal, thanks for showing it, so many have been polished "to death".

I do not know of any list of the Chinese L.C. that exists, so many nations that served in the L.C. were just numbers in a book but I would not be surprised if the "book" no longer exists.

Perhaps one of the other member will know if there is such a list.

Regards

Brian

[RobW]

Hi

I get this medal this week and I am very happy with it!!

Is there any chance to know the name of the Chinese #10107??

Thanks in advance for your help.

Aye

Bison

Hello Bison,

There is indeed a full medal roll for the Chinese Labour Corps (CLC) in existence. It is indexed by registered number, and includes the full name of the CLC member concerned, and an indication of the date, and sometimes location of death, if this occurred in service.

If you head over to the Medalcollectors.com forum there is a long four page thread on the Chinese Labour Corps BWM. In particular one of the forum members (James) has both a research project in progress as well as the medal roll for the CLC. I am not sure if you have to be a member but it is free and there is no shortage of information there.

The direct forum link is: Medalcollectors

Hope this is of use.

Regards,

Rob

Edited March 12, 2011 by RobW

[Bison]

Thank you Rob!

Unfortunately I cannot sign in to medalcollectors. When I try, this message appears: "Sorry. Registration has been disabled by the administrator."

The access seems to be now restricted.

Regards

Bison

[RobW]

Thank you Rob!

Unfortunately I cannot sign in to medalcollectors. When I try, this message appears: "Sorry. Registration has been disabled by the administrator."

The access seems to be now restricted.

Regards

Bison

Hello Bison,

I have posted the details of your CLC bronze war medal, with the picture of the rim, on that forum thread. If any information is provided as to the recipients details I shall re-post it here.

Regards,

Rob

[Bison]

Hi Rob

Than you for your friendly and kind help.

Regards

Bison

[Bison]

Hello Rob

Any news from your counterparts from medalcollectors?

Regards

Bison

[RobW]

Hello Rob

Any news from your counterparts from medalcollectors?

Regards

Bison

Hello Bison,

I have checked over the past couple of days, on regular occasions and there has not been a reply. I shall keep checking.

Regards,

Rob

[azyeoman]

Has the nominal roll for the Chinese Labour Corps surfaced again? I'm interested in finding out who No. 37324 was and would be most grateful to anyone who can help or steer me where to do the research.

Cheers,

John

[RobW]

Hello John,

There was no follow-up or reply to the original request by Bison. Since that time the link to that forum is re-directed to a domain hosting web-page. I am not hopeful that such a nominal roll will be surfacing anytime soon from that source. While it doesn't answer your question other avenues may turn up something.

Regards,

Rob

[azyeoman]

Thanks Rob,

I do too.

Cheers,

John

[azyeoman]

Brian,

I've been looking for a nice bronze BWM for some time and although they're not that rare, whenever one I really like turns up I don't have the spare cash.

One day I will buy one, the last one I fancied was to a Macedonian translator I think. Maybe I'm mixing it up with something else but it was Macedonian.

Owain, your BWM is something that would definitely take my fancy.

Tony

Make sure that if you buy one to a man who was in the CLC that there is no small bump between the "V" and the "B" on the obverse and if there is a number three in the service number that it has a straight top and not a round or curved one such as this "3". Williamson's book shows the alphabets and the numbers for all the WWI Medals and there were no rounded threes as are seen on some of the bronze BWM to the CLC.

[peter monahan]

Azeyeoman

What's the explanation for the medals with the 'wrong' naming?

It seems to me that if there are 'some' - meaning more than 1, I assume - WITH the rounded threes that there are two possible explanations:

1) some one is faking bronze medals to the Chinese Labour Corps, using name erased or unnamed bronze WM or

2) there really were some named in this style and Williamson is simply mistaken.

My money would be on explanation no. 2! I have owned many Indian issued British medals - WWI pairs and trios, including bronze ones, IGSMs and a few others and the variety of naming styles is very wide. Clearly the official style was used in the majority of cases but if the stamps were unavailable for whatever reason - worn out, in use, lost - the fellows in the Calcutta mint used whatever came to hand.

On the other hand, if you have info. on faking them, I'd be very interested in hearing it!

Sincerely,

Peter

[azyeoman]

Hi Peter,

I cannot give the exact explanation for medals with the "wrong" naming, but I know that there are many examples of medals that have been tampered with from the famous such as the Crimea Medals to faked medals that are ubiquitous such as some of the WWII stars. I'm NOT an expert. I will tell you though that I'm not going to feel comfortable having a medal in my collection that may be a fake or tampered with and so until proven otherwise, I'm happy to go along with what the books and respected dealers say. I've not got any experience in collecting medals from the Calcutta mint and perhaps the Bronze BWMs were minted in Calcutta; I don't know, but again, I will defer to the books and dealers I trust and respect. Williamson's book is excellent and I believe he's done his homework. Does that mean there aren't errors in it? No, but one thing I did note is that in the case of all the threes as shown in the numerous numbering styles used for WWI medals, none of them was anything but a straight-top three. As far as the obverse of the medals with the rounded threes, they also seem to have a small bump between the "V" and the "B" on the obverse. The medals with the straight-top threes do not have that "blemish". Lastly, there are copies/fakes of the bronze BWM out there that have an integral suspension rather than one with a separate rod for the ribbon and there are others that don't have the artist's initials on the obverse or reverse. I'm sure there were recipients who may have worn those, and that's fine with the correct provenance, but for me, I want to be able to look at my collection and have no doubts about the authenticity of the item in my hand and so again, I defer to the experts. : ) All the best, John

[paul wood]

On British awarded Great War Medals Williamsom is pretty well spot on, on Indian issues like virtually other so called bibles he leaves a lot to be desired. Thanks to errors in British Battles and Medals I have made many a killing, long may it continue. The one area where Williamson is to be congratulated is his list of rank abbreviations for India, while far from complete (I have 40-50 ranks not listed by him) it is a good start. On another tack has any one seen a bronze BWM to an Indian with either for example a bronze IGS NWF 1908 or a later IGS such as Afghanistan NWF 1919, I have only seen them as singles.

Paul

[Thomas Symmonds]

Hello Gentlemen -

Interesting!

I have now gone through my collection of bronze BWMs, looking at the 3s and between the Vs and Bs - unfortunately not all my medals have a 3 on them, but some observations -

- The SANLC - all that have a number 3 have the flat top 3, and no blemish between the V and B

- The Maltese Labour Corp example has a flat top 3, and no blemish between the V and B

- The Macedonian Mule Corp example has a flat top 3, and no blemish.

- The two Chinese Labour Corp examples, both have the blemish, and one has the rounded 3. (The other example does not have a 3 in the number).

- Of the eight examples of the Indian Corps examples, all have the correct separate roller bar and all have the artisit's initials (W. McW - for William McMillan) at the 5 o'clock on the reverse, but -

• One example has a flat top 3, and no blemish
  
• One example has a round 3, and has a blemish
  
• Two show others show blemishes, but these have no 3 in the force number.
  
• The others are blemish free, but no 3 in the number
  

I am sitting on the fence at the moment. The blemished, round 3 medals look good. I can't fault them. I have Howard Williamson's book - and a copy of his latest edition (numbered 600 in fact ), but I would like to think that Peter's No 2 theory holds water too.

I would really like to see the other Chinese examples, and perhaps some-one can comment on the other medals minted in Calcutta?

Anybody got Mr Williamson's phone number?

best regards

Thomas

[azyeoman]

Here's the only one I have to a man whose name was Wang Te Lin and served in the Chinese Labour Corps (CLC). There is no blemish on the obverse between the V and the B either. The suspension rod is a separate piece too. What is interesting to me is that the initials on both the obverse and the reverse seem to be clearer and more prominent than on the bronze BWMs with the round three.

Sorry the photo is upside down, but nevertheless, you can easily see the flat or straight three.

Edited November 28, 2012 by azyeoman

[azyeoman]

Note that between the V and the B, there is no blemish and it is just flat. You can also see that the rod under which the ribbon passes, is a separate piece.

[azyeoman]

Here's the reverse of the above medal.

[Trajan]

On 15/05/2010 at 21:52, Brian Wolfe said:

Hello Everyone,

I have been looking for a bronze BWM named to an Indian for some time now and thanks to a fellow member here at GMIC I now have one. Many thanks, you know who you are.

 

The bronze BWM was awarded to personnel in labour battalions rather than the silver medals that went to military personnel.

The number struck and awarded was about 110,000 compared with the silver BWM that comes in around 6,500,000 [numbers source Medal Yearbook 2004]. These are understandably much more difficult to come by than the silver ones. I now have three in my collection. The Medal Yearbook states that these were awarded "manly to Chinese, Indian and Maltese personnel", I still have to get one awarded to a Maltese labourer. The medals in the photo have labels so I won't duplicate that information here.

I've taken close up photos of the naming and I hope you can make them out; photography is not my forte.

Regards

Brian

6245 Muleteer, Macedonian Mule Corps, is Costis, Georghi.

Trajan

On 15/05/2010 at 21:52, Brian Wolfe said:

Hello Everyone,

I have been looking for a bronze BWM named to an Indian for some time now and thanks to a fellow member here at GMIC I now have one. Many thanks, you know who you are.

 

The bronze BWM was awarded to personnel in labour battalions rather than the silver medals that went to military personnel.

The number struck and awarded was about 110,000 compared with the silver BWM that comes in around 6,500,000 [numbers source Medal Yearbook 2004]. These are understandably much more difficult to come by than the silver ones. I now have three in my collection. The Medal Yearbook states that these were awarded "manly to Chinese, Indian and Maltese personnel", I still have to get one awarded to a Maltese labourer. The medals in the photo have labels so I won't duplicate that information here.

I've taken close up photos of the naming and I hope you can make them out; photography is not my forte.

Regards

Brian

6245 Muleteer, Macedonian Mule Corps, is Costis, Georghi.

Trajan