Austria-Hungary Signum Laudis

[Yankee]

Dear Gentleman

Two Signum Laudis with the same inscription to an airship officer. Small capital letters engraved along the edge, "SEINAM KAMERADEN DAS OFFIZIERSKORPS DER LUFTSCHIFFERABTEILUNG"

[Magician]

Try to photo the inscription. ;)

[Yankee]

Hi Magician Either pre WWI before the Airservice was called "Luftfahrt" or awarded for the Zeppelin division sometime between 1914-16. I'm not 100% certain on this however. I would think both medals would be awarded to the same guy since the inscription is exact.

[Yankee]

[Tim B]

Hi guys,

I've looked in on this thread a few times hoping more would respond and give some opinions but...

Anyway, as I am trying to learn this "new" area, I have a couple of questions on the two pieces shown.

I understand the Signum Laudis in bronze (gilted bronze) was awarded between 1890 - 1918. The silver came later and was awarded between 1911 - 1918.

You could only receive one award in bronze, and if a second medal was warranted, then the silver medal was awarded. From April, 1916 the silver medal could have up to two silver bars for multiple awards of this medal; a maximimum of three awards total.

Then, on December 13, 1916 crossed swords (gilt) were authorized for wear on the tri-fold war ribbon of both bronze and silver medals to denote frontline service.

So, if I got all that correct, then we see a bronze medal with crossed swords, indicating to me it was awarded sometime in 1916 and prior to the medal switching styles from the Franz-Joseph to the dual crowned Charles (Karl) version. I guess my first question would be; once the swords were authorized, was there any "grandfather clause" or previous period or timeframe that the swords would have been added to existing awarded personnel?

My second question concerns the swords being on one medal and not the other. If the man was entitled to swords on the bronze medal, either he didn't remain on the front when awarded the second (silver) award, or ... ?

Trying to learn.

Tim

[IrishGunner]

Good questions Tim. And thanks for bringing the thread back to life.

I have a question to add - are all Signum Laudis engraved on the edge with the recipient (ala British medals of the period)? I suspect this was by exception. But curious to read what others have to write.

(But if so, I can't wait to get home and dig these out of the safe deposit box and see who I have!)

[Yankee]

Hi Gentlemen

In fact I also thought it was a bit odd to have swds on one ribbon & not the other. I had always assumed it was a pair. If they were not given to the same officr then it would explain why there are no swds on the other bravery ribbon. The swds are not so well secured to the ribbon and it could be a possibility that at one time the swds had been placed and over time just fell off or the ribbon had just been replaced. As far as I know all Signum Laudis medals were issued without an inscription on the rim. It would be the friends of the recipient to take it upon themselves to present such a nice gesture. Exactly what makes British medals so much fun to collect is that you can always be sure of a name.

I was told by another collector that their are fake inscribed Signum Laudis medals out there so be careful... I was told by another collector that there are solid siver Signum Laudis examples but not sure when they would have been awarded.

Sincerely

Yankee

[Tim B]

Hi guys,

Not sure here as I have never seen engraved Signum Laudis before, then again I am just starting out. I would say they certainly look like a pair, with the same engraving.

Brian,

As far as I can tell, these are original medals based on the strike. The only fakes that I have seen appear to have solid crowns and not open like yours seem to be. If you search past old threads, Kevin started one where he showed a side by side example of what I am talking about.

Hard to say on the engraving here and will have to see what others might add. Like you said, might have been done by someone as a gift or gesture of admiration.

On the swords... I see these in several combinations online. What I suspect is, over time, some probably added swords not knowing the rules, perhaps even the veterans themselves. Like you said, ribbons could have been replaced at one point. If you can find out more about the guy on the engraving, perhaps he was frontline during the first award and not when he received the silver (second) award. I don't know enough here to give a better, more accurate, opinion on.

They look nice!

Tim

[bovec1313]

Hello Gentlemen,

Yankee, what do you mean with solid silver Signum Laudis? Do you mean they're struck from silver? I have few silver Signum Laudis in collection, properly hallmarked with silver hallmark. producers are HUW (Hauptmunzamt Wien), Zimbler und W. Kunz; some of them have as well ''A'' hallmark.

I believe silver of silvered bronze depended just on the producer; The guessing that silver might become to expensive in the later stage of the war is not correct on my opinion. There was not so many silver Signum Laudis awarded (about 10.000 ?) that quantity of silver needed would be a problem. Afterall, all silver Signum Laudis from 1917 onwards (with kaiser Karl) are made from solid silver again. And number of awarded 1st and 2nd class Silver Medal for Bravery was much higher, but they retained solid silver almost to the end of the war.

regards,

bovec1313

[Yankee]

Hi Pavel

Solid silver issued examples is exactly what I meant to say. It would be logical to think that war time issued pieces would only be silver-plated, zinc & etc. As you kindly pointed out this was not the case. I did not notice any silver hallmarks on the example to the airship officer. Any idea how many were awarded in the non solid silver. I have never noticed a seller describing the metal content for these medals. Perhaps they are in the dark like me or the values are nearly the same and not worth to mention the fact.

Hi Tim

I think it would be nearly impossible to identify the recipient. The Austrians for the most part only engraved the unit, never a name. A friend has one inscribed to the GENERAL STAFF and I do not recall an actual name or date being present. There would have been dozens assigned to that post. Perhaps in the Vienna archives there is a list of names for all staff positions. It was popular with the Austro/Hungarians to decorate their award cases and sometimes a dedication would be placed but not on the medal itself. So a case could be more sought after than the medal.

Sincerely

Brian

[bovec1313]

Hi Brian,

you've started a very inrteresting issue about silver Signum Laudis.

For % of solid silver medal; my estimation is 20 - 25% should be silver medals, the rest silvered bronze. But it's an interesting question, why for the officer's decoration silver was not used for all medals?

I started to ask myself as well how many of them were awarded.

I've found some interesting numbers in the book Die Bosniaken Kommen (The Bosnians are comming) about elite fighting troops of KuK monarchy. Book has as well number of awarded decorations.

I'll put some of them here, might be interested for all of you. (Numbers don't enclude last year, namely 1918 neither offiecrs who were KIA before 1917)

bronze Signum Laudis Silver Signum laudis MilitaerVerdienstKreuz Order of Iron Crown Class III gold Bravery medals 1st class silver 2nd class silver bronze

BH1 93 78 119 26 20 521 2000 5000

BH2 87 60 113 29 42 590 1950 4300

BH3 191 78 90 15 10 477 1450 3860

BH4 181 72 122 34 15 348 1900 4570

If we take app. number of each decoration per regiment (in fact it should be lower as BH regiment were hifghly decorated units), and taking into account that KuK army has about 170 infantry regiments + artitely, cavalry, etc etc..

you can have an idea.... (for silver signum laudis my estimation is 20.000 +/- 5.000)

regards, Pavel

[Tim B]

Another interesting piece. Looks like a hand-made attempt at a Große Militärverdientsmedaille IMO. Other thoughts?

Tim

[Elmar Lang]

It can be anything; but in my opinion is what in German can be considered a "Bastelarbeit".

I think that it's a poor attempt to create a "wear piece" of the Große Militärverdienstmedaille, but such pieces never existed besides in the mind of some "creative" of nowadays.

Elmar Lang

[Tim B]

Hi Elmar,

Yes, agree, someone trying to make this up.

If they were trying to make a Große Militärverdienstmedaille, then they must have forgotten that these were physically larger than the standard versions and the wreath were of the same mold and not separate pieces. They were also gilted with the coin and not enameled green.

First one I seen this way. I know originals are very rare and would be quite expensive.

Tim

[IrishGunner]

Good questions Tim. And thanks for bringing the thread back to life.

I have a question to add - are all Signum Laudis engraved on the edge with the recipient (ala British medals of the period)? I suspect this was by exception. But curious to read what others have to write.

(But if so, I can't wait to get home and dig these out of the safe deposit box and see who I have!)

Well, over 3 years later, I finally did some "digging"...

Nothing engraved on the rim... But a nice Bronzene Militärverdienstmedaille (" Signum laudis") am Band des Militärverdienstkreuzes mit Schwerter

[IrishGunner]

Here's the later version with Kaiser Karl in silver

Silberne Militärverdienstmedaille "Signum laudis" Kaiser Karl I. Replacement ribbon.