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Noor

Imperial Austrian Military Merit Cross

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Hi gents

ive given it a little clean. Markings are still unclear to me. Any opinions welcome....

DFC24202-4A4D-4AF2-AA73-460911369E8D.thumb.jpeg.6eb018122a23cc817beba35f8768eea4.jpeg

C869FB19-BD79-4082-8158-8111AAF10FED.thumb.jpeg.f819409f10e9545af8b734ae3f52cd12.jpeg

FA9F5DE0-5964-4DA0-8152-D8C4CD6C9815.thumb.jpeg.ba98004bce850623b1e01d718269f35e.jpeg

F3E12CB9-A229-42D5-B3FD-29CB257E2CF8.thumb.jpeg.ebf1a2ee27ba67d37da16d4c8cde7dcd.jpeg

hope you love me it

tony

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Hi Tony,

what´s the question? Sorry , I didn't get it. It´s Military Merit Cross III. Class with War Decoration and Swords, so-called 3th issue (circa 1866-1918). This one originates from WWI.  It´s extremely hard to recognize hallmarks or maker´s mark from these pics (for me it´s impossible)  but obviously it´s silver ("head of Diana" ??? on the suspension, left side) and on the right side I would say it´s also manufacturer´s mark but I can´t see it. However, it doesn't matter...just MVK 3. Klasse mit KD und Schwertern...very nice and good preserved one but also very common decoration indeed.

Regards,

Tomas (tifes)

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Hi Thomas

thanks for your reply...

’love me it’  is a typo! Think I intended ‘like it.’..

i had put a bit more effort into the previous post, I was asking if it looked ‘okay’ and for any thoughts on the stamps. 

 

thanks again for your help tifes 

Best wishes

tony

 

 

6 hours ago, tifes said:

Hi Tony,

what´s the question? Sorry , I didn't get it. It´s Military Merit Cross III. Class with War Decoration and Swords, so-called 3th issue (circa 1866-1918). This one originates from WWI.  It´s extremely hard to recognize hallmarks or maker´s mark from these pics (for me it´s impossible)  but obviously it´s silver ("head of Diana" ??? on the suspension, left side) and on the right side I would say it´s also manufacturer´s mark but I can´t see it. However, it doesn't matter...just MVK 3. Klasse mit KD und Schwertern...very nice and good preserved one but also very common decoration indeed.

Regards,

Tomas (tifes)

 

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I found this one:

Is that Kleindekoration genuine and was this etui used for the Kleindekoration. (was there maybe a case with "Kleindekoration" on it)?

s-l1600.jpgs-l1600.jpg

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The cross itself is original, so the case, where "K.D." means "Kriegsdekoration".

The ribbon (I mean the cloth part) surely is post-1918; the enamelled, metal detail would need some thorough examination.

Best wishes,

E.L.

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Posted (edited)

Thank you very much for youre answer!

I know the K.D. means Kriegsdekoration, I was just wondering if there were etuis especially made for the Kleindekoration like for example for the Ordern der Eisernen Krone. I have not seen that with the MVK.

I always have doubts about the Kleindekorationen cause it seems easy to raise the price of a piece just by ading the little metal peace.

 

s-l1600.jpg

Edited by Utgardloki

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Actually, I've never seen a "Kleindekoration" case for the MVK, although it's some time since I've started to collect A-H awards.

Most probably, they exist.

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There are no doubts at all, that the "Kleindekoration" of the MVK in any class existed (thank you for the beautiful portrait picture and for the plate from Michetschläger's book!); only, until now I think I've never seen a MVK case, embossed with "Kleindekoration" as it is known for orders.

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That book is so beautiful, i am still looking for a copy, they are hard to find.

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The Michetschläger is an expensive book, but it's a "must-have" one...

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There is a reprint of Michetschläger, not best quality but fine for reference. I purchased it for under 100,- € some years ago in the net from a german company.

Just some examples of "Kleine Dekoration":

 

 

008b - MVK II + KD + Schw. - Kleine Dekoration avers.jpg

008b - MVK II + KD + Schw. - Kleine Dekoration Detail.jpg

and for MVK 1st class.

Most of them were produced after 1918 I would assume. It´s hard to say which were from the 1914 - 1918 Periode and which after 1918.

Regards

Christian

 

0026-MVK I. Kl. + KD + Schwerter - KD.JPG

0026-MVK III. Kl. mit Kleindekoration I. Kl. + KD + Schw..jpg

Maybe it´s of interest. I purchased this "Kleine Dekoration" within a "luxury case" which is not marked as "Kleine Dekoration". Have a look onto the backside. I am sure it´s an owners inscription by himself. But I would think that wartime issues would have the inscription "Militärverdienstkreuz 2. Klasse - Kleine Dekoration".

Christian

008b - MVK II + KD + Schw. - Kleine Dekoration Etui unten.jpg

008b - MVK II + KD + Schw. - Kleine Dekoration Etui.jpg

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Curious to say, after the paper inscription, this piece should come from the property of Gen. v. Können-Horak: some orders and decorations from his property, have been sold years ago.

The reprint of the Michetschläger, although very good, has the plates reduced. The original edition has the illustration in 1:1 size, besides otherwise stated.

Best wishes,

E.L.

 

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36 minutes ago, Elmar Lang said:

Curious to say, after the paper inscription, this piece should come from the property of Gen. v. Können-Horak: some orders and decorations from his property, have been sold years ago.

Best wishes,

E.L.

 

Dear Elmar,

thank you very much for this clue. I remember to have bought it in 2010 in a Künker auction.

Regards

Christian

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In the past, I've bought some pieces belonged to Gen. v. Können-Horak: I should especially check the bottom of a case to a MDZ f. 25 Jahre. 

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18 hours ago, Utgardloki said:

That book is so beautiful, i am still looking for a copy, they are hard to find.

I don't have this book, but when he auctioned, I saved some photos that I can send to you.

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Those are nice pieces Christian. Thank you for sharing.

On 05/03/2019 at 10:24, 1812 Overture said:

I don't have this book, but when he auctioned, I saved some photos that I can send to you.

I would appreciate that, thanks

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5 hours ago, Utgardloki said:

Those are nice pieces Christian. Thank you for sharing.

No problem anyway, you are welcomed.

Note: there were lots of unfinished parts left which were finished in the 1960ties and 1970ties. They make most of the pieces on collector´s market today.

Regards

Christian

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Original small decorations of Military Merit Cross (whatever grade) were introduced only in late April 1918, which means very few pieces made before end of WWI and collapse of the Empire. I have never seen any embossed box for any Military Merit Cross´s small decoration either. I have only seen boxes with inscription of small decoration on the lid for LO-GK, LO-1. Class, EKOI and FJO-GK. I assume that there must be also one for St. Stephan Order-GK small decoration however, I didn’t have the pleasure to see one in person yet.  

Concerning originally it’s quite challenging. One of the sign of originality is “Flinkierung” of the enamel (fine under-texture of the enamel) however, general rule is that it should look good ;)  That small decoration of 2nd class MVK on 2 pics from Christian1962 looks like good 1918 original for me.

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1 hour ago, tifes said:

Concerning originally it’s quite challenging. One of the sign of originality is “Flinkierung” of the enamel (fine under-texture of the enamel) however, general rule is that it should look good ;)  That small decoration of 2nd class MVK on 2 pics from Christian1962 looks like good 1918 original for me.

I always have a look if it is a multipart construction or not. When there are minimum three parts (cross, center medaillon and swords) it´s not a cheap piece.

In addition the inscript on the  backside says "mein  Eigentum" so I would assume it´s a private purchased issue of good quality. To say it honestly: it must not be an "official piece" which was delivered by the "Ordenskanzlei".

Would other members have pics of their pieces to post here? Would be interesting for comparing.

Regards

Christian

 

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Hello fellas!

Just got my first Military Merit Cross for $60. Despite the chip on the back I’m pretty happy with it. 

It has no makers mark on the suspension ring nor loop. Would this be a wartime award or one made post war?

Thanks,

Ravs

 

DC4904C6-C22C-4441-AA67-BCEC5A446B99.jpeg

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Posted (edited)

I have a question regarding the MVK in brilliants. One, awarded to Rudolf Graf Montecuccoli (1843 - 1922) was auctioned at the Dorotheum in 2015. Going through pictures of the Tallinn Museum of Orders of Knighthood I found out were it went to. Interestingly there it is presented in a case, which wasn't mentioned in Ludwigstorffs auction description. Further there it is mentioned it was made by A.E. Köchert. The case has the emblem of Franz Thili's Neffe inside. Did they do  cases for insignia of other manufacturers? So my question is if this is the original case?

Has someone viewed it before the auction? Was there a case?

Dorotheum:

image.png.7e3508adff19a1b21d821f09c05ac183.png

image.png.1763f118337fec1f340cd468da891d2f.png

image.png.dfa09bc620efd69ac8f9e7f6b101a943.png

Tallinn Order Museum:

image.thumb.png.ae9d38af719859966a076054399695d0.png

image.thumb.png.ae9d38af719859966a076054399695d0.png

image.png.01a6ae108f8a1480d6c0b8c31ba6d8e5.pngimage.thumb.png.86ca7756a72e12ebc85a08b2de88fa70.png

image.png.46e255012db6b380ab978942452bfe89.png

 

Edited by Utgardloki

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At the Dorotheum`s auction back in 2015 there was MVK III. Class in diamonds and rubies, but without case. It was Koechert production. Altogether there were 9 pieces made, 5 by Koechert and 4 by Rothe and I can’t say whether in Tallinn there is Count Montecuccoli´s MVK.  All originals were cased in boxes, wearing the mark of particular company, either Koechert or Rothe on the inner side of the lid. Franz Thili's Neffe company was never producer of any A-H orders and decoration. They produced military equipment (also boxes for decorations) but also chamberlain’s keys (k.u.k. Kämmererschlüsseln).

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Posted (edited)

I think that the MVK/Brill. Belonged to Gf. Montecuccoli, once reached the museum's showcases, was put in a presentation case of F. Thill's Neffe (made for a 'normal' MVK/FD). 

It's just my humble opinion, but I think that the "upgrade" made by the museum's experts was a little mistake. 

The museum's description "(...) only ten such awards with precious stones and case were ever made (...)" is quite curious, especially regarding the case... 

But we know that the new "trend" is to consider orders and decorations as worth of some interest, only when cased... 

Edited by Elmar Lang

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Posted (edited)

Thank You for the interesting answers.

Maybe they got the idea after seeing the one in the HGM in Vienna, which has a similar case

Unfortunately I didn't find a full picture

28055762331_6f0c6e7965_k.thumb.jpg.af6a07d0537a65282818eb44d0576110.jpg

It seems like cases in this style existed in many variants:

Here a dedicated one for a Golden VK with Crown, also in the same style

image.thumb.png.8d85b9938c0ece6f5deb32838da44447.png

Silver Signum Laudis:

P1430457.jpg

P1430459.jpg

P1430461.jpg

P1430463.jpg

 

That one from a Dorotheum auction might be in the same style, unfortunately there isn't a picture from it opened up.

According to the description this is a case for a MVK III in brilliants from Rothe

image.thumb.png.6106cea9812586129c3cf2cc89e48db0.png

 

 

Edited by Utgardloki

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