EK 1914 Named EK I 1914

[Vic Diehl]

Eric,

Just want to mention that, yes this cross has been cleaned, sadly there are even traces of abrasive cleaning. There was a time that the entire back of this cross would have been so blackened that the inscription would have been barely visible. Cleaning of artifacts, other than removing destructive elements like rust, does nothing but remove important historical information.

Vic

[Glenn R]

I have collected EK's and specifically engraved EK's for quite some time now. I would be absolutely happy with the engraving on that cross and see no issue with it at all.

It looks to me that the pin may have been a repair job at some point but doesn't detract from it for me at all.

A really nice find. Thanks for sharing it.

I would add it to my collection in a heartbeat.

Glenn.

[joe campbell]

glenn has eloquently stated my bottom line:

this piece would have center stage in my collection!

joe

[saschaw]

But one point causes me thinking. The term 'Feldwebel' usually should be written with a large 'F', even as an abbreviation. Noteworthy the engraver wrote it with a small 'f'. Gramatically this is incorrect in the German language. [...] A faker would have done it correctly imo.

My biggest problem with this cross. I cannot imagine a German engraver could have done this mistake. A non-German would do it...

[Flyingdutchman]

My biggest problem with this cross. I cannot imagine a German engraver could have done this mistake. A non-German would do it...

Maybe he was a Vizefeldwebel, that could be the reason why the normal 'f' was used. But this is not a strong point, just an idea.

Rgds;

Flyingdutchman

[Vic Diehl]

Every comment regarding this cross inscription is indeed appreciated. Of course, I believe in it as I am the owner and have been collecting for over 40 years. But such a truly rare artifact must be examined with all suspicion. Regarding the spelling of feldw. Records are very incomplete but based on research done by Strasheim and Hundleby by 1918 at least two VzFw, Lommen, and Ludwig had joined Abt 1. See pages 46 and 47 of their book Sturmpanzer A7V.

So in my opinion, based on the literacy of the engraver the inscription on the badge is completely understandable. By eliminating the first and last few letters of the Vizefeldwebel term we would end up with exactly what we have engraved on the badge.

Of course we will never know for sure. When the badge goes to auction some day in the far future, then we will know what many collects really think. :beer:

[speedytop]

So in my opinion, based on the literacy of the engraver the inscription on the badge is completely understandable. By eliminating the first and last few letters of the Vizefeldwebel term we would end up with exactly what we have engraved on the badge.

No, that is in my opinion not correct.

As saschaw wrote, for a German engraver it is definitely written wrong with the small f.

And there was nothing with Vize feldw ebel; you can see the dot behind "feldw.", that is the usual end of an abbreviation for Feldw. Also foreigners know it .

Uwe

Edited September 15, 2010 by speedytop

[VtwinVince]

My uncle was a Vizefeldwebel in the first war, and nobody would have referred to him as a feldwebel. The Germans were very rank-conscious, so this makes no sense grammatically. And I still don't like the style of the engraving.

[Vic Diehl]

I hear you. I know you feel strong in your beliefs that really make collecting fun and a learning experience for eveyone. If this was the first bit of German engraving I had ever seen I may be concerned. There are simply too many positive components for this not to be good. Stop by and look at it.

[VtwinVince]

Hi Vic,

I agree that the engraving looks period, and I have owned several examples of indisputable engraved EK1's. Grammar mistakes are not unheard of, but unlikely and immediately raise a red flag for me. I was recently offered an engraved 'Abschiedsgeschenk', or end of service gift, ostensibly from the officer corps of a famous Prussian regiment. It all looked kosher until I noticed that 'Offizierskorps' was spelled 'Offizierkorps', which is wrong. I immediately took a pass on the item. Of course individual collectors have to feel comfortable with items which don't necessarily conform to all regulations. I have a bar which makes no sense, to a Prussian officer. Everyone who's seen it, thinks it's a fake, but I think it's period for several reasons. Having the piece in hand does make a big difference.

[Vic Diehl]

Vince,

You comments are always appreciated. I do hope that sometime you will be able to handle this one, the engraving has the "right feel" to the fingers as well as right patina for the period, but you really must see it in real life. I liked the engraving the first second I saw and German input was the same. But who knows for sure all we can do is the best evaluation. Years ago while studying named navy daggers I learned to rely more on my microscope than any other single tool. But in the end it is just more stuff, that just a few of us really apprciate.

Best of luck to you in your collecting. Hope to see you at the MAX.

Vic

[speedytop]

Hi VitwinVince

It all looked kosher until I noticed that 'Offizierskorps' was spelled 'Offizierkorps', which is wrong.

Who told you that?

It was (and is) correct, to write Offizierkorps or e.g. Offizierkasino

In the past it was not correct, to write Offizierskorps.

http://www.zeno.org/...s-1905-014-0921

http://www.retrobibl....html?id=112099

http://de.wikipedia....i/Offizierkorps

Uwe

[VtwinVince]

Uwe, that is interesting. I had a group to an Austrian officer, and his cases had the following: 'Offizierskorps des k.u.k. Infanterieregiments No. 3'.

[speedytop]

Hi VitwinVince,

that is Austria (and not Germany, Prussia), therefore it is correct.

Uwe

[Vic Diehl]

I know this EK I has generated some interest good and bad. I currently am in contact with the grandson-in-law who has been searching for any books and medals from Fritz Hammer. He is sure this is Fritz's cross based on information from Fritz'z son.

Here is one email----

Each time we communicate we come up with more info. His son, Also Friedrich (Fritz) Hammer, says that he was a Feldwebel (Sargeant) in the Tank Corps. The exact date of presentation is not known, because his son was not born until 1924. We have no documents on this, just the fact that his son, a Submariner (Kriegsmarine), in WWII, knew about it. I don't know what I can do to provide any other documentation. I have his WWII uniform items,including his lower class of Cross he got in WWII. It would be a shame to know that his WWI Cross might be out there and not be able to have it. But, it is up to you now to decide what to do with it. By the way, how is it you have possession of this Cross? Are you a military collector? (hoping fo good news). P.S. We just find out that my wife's brother, needing some money, hocked Opa Fritz's Cross, and also his "Book" showing all his posts, awards and promotions. You haven't come across any "books" from the German military have you? He is convinced it is a family piece and wants to buy it back.I really don't want to sell this item. I think no matter what price I put on this cross, the grandson will be sure I am ripping him off.

Here is another email:

In the story about his escapades, he was known as being part of a group called "Tank Killers." Their speciality was to lie in trenches and wait until the talk went over them, then stuff the grenades into the undercarriage bar, built to protect the undercarrage when it went over debris. The grenade would then explode, disabling the tank and catching it on fire. He "killed" four of these tanks this way; thereby earning him the Iron Cross. I have also founf out that his record was called a "Soldbuch", where all his record, including payroll were entered. Another interesting story was when he was home on leave in orms am Rhein, his hometown he shot himse in the tomach. It was a rule that soldiers kept their rifle directly by their beds when they slept. An air raid occurred causing him to jump out of bed, knocking over the rifle. It accidently fired, hitting him in the stomach. He recovered, but the bullet remained lodged inside him until his death. After his "accident" he was placed on duty at a POW camp in the Eifel area.

Does any of this story ring true with you gentlemen?

[Glenn R]

Very interesting communications. Nice to be talking to the family. I wouldn't like to comment on the voracity of the accounts, not my area but it makes for very interesting reading.

I'm still firmly of the opinion that grammatical arguments aside, that is a period engraved cross.

Excuse me for the shame-faced hint, but I'd buy it! ;)

[Vic Diehl]

Well, the whole thing went badly. I was figuring since it was a family cross they would pay a reasonable price. I know family stuff I have from the War of 1812 are treasures almost without price. The brother in law sold the cross for a small amount and the grandaughter of Fritz, felt like it was the honest thing to do for me to sell it back to them for a few hundred. I declined. This is a really rare item and there is simply no way I am doing that and then some other family member in the next generation sells it for $200.00 again. I know we all can justify our own behavior and that is what I am doing no doubt. I did send them high resolution pictures so they do have something to look at.

There will come a time in the next 10-15 years when this cross will be sold at Hermann Historica, I will most likely be too old to really care, but I think it will not sell for a few hundred. I did tell the wife that I thought it would be great if wives could set prices for militry collectibles world wide ;-)) I guess we are at the end of this story.

Would any of you guys have done this differently?

Edited December 4, 2010 by Vic Diehl

[Chris Boonzaier]

Well, the whole thing went badly. I was figuring since it was a family cross they would pay a reasonable price. I know family stuff I have from the War of 1812 are treasures almost without price. The brother in law sold the cross for a small amount and the grandaughter of Fritz, felt like it was the honest thing to do for me to sell it back to them for a few hundred. I declined. This is a really rare item and there is simply no way I am doing that and then some other family member in the next generation sells it for $200.00 again. I know we all can justify our own behavior and that is what I am doing no doubt. I did send them high resolution pictures so they do have something to look at.

There will come a time in the next 10-15 years when this cross will be sold at Hermann Historica, I will most likely be too old to really care, but I think it will not sell for a few hundred. I did tell the wife that I thought it would be great if wives could set prices for militry collectibles world wide ;-)) I guess we are at the end of this story.

Would any of you guys have done this differently?

Its up to each collector to decide for himself. Personally, if the folks were nice, I would have given it to them for what i paid plus a little on top for research efforts. if they were not nice, i would not bother.

But I suspect you are going to get answers that range from "give it to em for X-Mas " to "Demand market price" and some pretty excited reasoning as to why you should.

There is no way at all of knowing if the family will keep or sell it.

Best

Chris

[Brian Wolfe]

In the past couple of years I have been contacted by these so-called "family members" who want their family's medals returned. I have contacted these folks and, not being one to concern myself about a profit, have offered to sell them back for exactly what I paid. Both cases wanted the medals back at my cost and loss! First of all, what makes anyone think they are entitled to "family" medals once they have been sold? Someone has decided to sell the medal or medals; it was a legal transaction no different than any other legal transaction. Sure, we can get all warm and fuzzy and return the medals to the family, if that is what you are going for. The original soldier was the one who earned the award not somebody years and years later who can only claim association through DNA. If you are looking for a warm and fuzzy then donate some cash to the Salvation Army.

I know this sounds cold hearted and one might say, "Sure, easy for you to say because it was not your family members medals". True, however, late last year a I located a group of three Canadian medals, two WWII and a CD (the only one named), and I was sure it was a family member. I ended up paying $650.00 Canadian for the group which is one heck of a high price. I didn't and don't see this group as being rightfully mine. Well, actually I do now as I own them outright.

One must be careful about falling into the trap set by those wanting something for nothing, they may only be related by name only and not by direct blood line (or DNA). If someone wants something "back" then they will make an offer befitting their desire to reclaim the item. Everything has a price tag and the fact that someone is not willing to even pay a reasonable price is proof of my statement. Keep the medal, it's yours, no difference between you having it or a museum, bottom line is that it no longer is in the hands of the soldier's family. Who knows, if he were alive today he might not even like them or they him, for that matter.

I guess this would be a bad time to say Merry Christmas.

Regards

Brian

[Vic Diehl]

Brian:

I am in your corner, as I am not the most trusting soul anymore. The only time I really felt good about returning an item was a German Flag I bought in a collection. It was a Turner Verein flag, beautiful red and filled with embroidery including the name of the town. I researched the town and found the the gymnastic society still existed. I contacted them and sent them pictures to see their reaction. Well of course they wanted their flag !! They were thrilled and willing to pay. I had practically nothing in the flag so I sent it to them for free. They did not name me honor mayor or anything, like Wittmanns latest return, but they were most pleased. That was my "warm and fuzzy" moment in military antiquing. I have a Japanese sword I bought locally after being passed up by the 4 sons of the owner. Sooner or later the phone is going ring. They can have it back, but it will cost them as it has a new fresh polish!!

Brian----Merry Christmas !!

[Hauptmann]

Brian, I think you make an excellent case. As you say, when we own it it's no different than it being in a museum... except perhaps the fact that it may be on public display. If I spotted an ancestors awards in a museum do you think they'd even sell them to me much less give them to me? I don't think so.

To me... if it's a person I know... or get to know over time and they are a good person, who through their actions show how much they care about their family history, and make a real effort to collect, display and cherish artifacts from same... then I might indeed consider either selling a piece back to them or giving it to them. It's got to be on a case by case basis.

But as you say, we buy these things fair and square. And in most cases the items we collect have been through Lord knows how many hands/collections/sellers, etc. We're only one link in what is often a very long chain.

I have no personal knowledge of family awards floating around out there. But I do know of two items... my Uncle Jack Burns photo album from his time in boot camp all the way through WW2 and an optic from a German tank he brought back, both of which he said were going to be left to me when he passed. Sadly his wife did not follow through and for all I know they ended up in a trash can or dumpster. I pray that's not the case. I do keep an eye on Ebay, at least for the album as I'm sure if someone had the optic... assuming they knew what it was... they'd want a small fortune for it. This all happened down in Perry Florida years ago before we moved to North Dakota. But assuming I found whoever might have one or both of these items I'd certainly be interested in getting them back for my family. I'm actually the only one who really truly cared to save much of anything. I'm also the sole genealogist that I'm aware of in my family. Everything I have will be passed down through my son Nick. So yes, I'd love to recover Jack's album and optic. But I would certainly be willing to pay a reasonable price, assuming I had the money, or I'd see about making payments if the current owner would accept that. Other than that, if it was the album... I'd at least request that I be allowed to scan it, or see if the current owner would be willing to do that. But if I was refused on any of this I'm no worse off than I am in not having the pieces. I'm sad it has been lost for future generations of my family. Just as I am for the Burn's family silver set that was stolen from my mother's house in Quincy Florida. It's that much less I can pass down. But no one can save everything. I've tried my best to keep and conserve what I can. That's been hard as we've been through a number of moves during my life and each time a little more is lost. But I've never let anything truly important go. I pray that some day, a great great great grand child looks to heaven and thanks me for doing it. That would make it all truly worth it.

Again a very personal decision and I would never judge another regardless of what they did in such a situation. Judge not or be yeself judged. Don't worry about the speck in someone else's eye... worry about the beam in your own.

Just my two pfennigs worth.

Dan

[Chris Boonzaier]

I would never categorically say "yes!" or "No!"

For me it would be a case as to whether I like the people or not. Just like with anything else in life.

If I saw they were really very interested in their family history and were nice folks, I would say "screw it, here it cost me EURXXX and I spent EURXX on postage, research etc... so take it for EURXCV"

and I will use the money to buy me something just as nice.

If I thought they were arrogant SOBs and were not that interested, I would tell them to dig deep.

An old School friends mother just sold her paternal grandfathers WW2 medals last month and she is REALLY POd with her mother. The mother said "I never did like the old Bastid" and my old school chum is fuming because she was never asked if she wanted them. Mother sold them for EUR3 for each medal :rolleyes:

[Hauptmann]

On that note... I will add this: If you are in a family who has "anything" you would like in order to keep a piece or pieces of your families history, be it militaria or not... do not be afraid to speak up! Tell all and sundry who will possibly have any bearing on the distribution of such items (estate sale, etc.) once the current owner passes on. Or in the instance that the current owner "might" down the road decide to get rid of it one way or another (house cleaning, down sizing, etc.).

If you don't say anything don't be amazed when something goes the way of the dodo. Same goes for people you know. If you like or admire something let it be known. My best friend John down in Florida... his dad (also a friend) had a MAC 10 with suppressor, magazines, carrying case, tools, etc. as well as a .22 rifle. I LOVED the MAC 10 which he brought over to shoot at our place down in Florida at one point. I actually did tell him how much I liked it and John knew as well. Well, his dad ran a bit of a mini flea market in his yard down there... and one day (although he'd said he'd never want to get rid of it) two guys were there checking things out and asked if he had any guns for sale. Sure enough, he got both pieces and sold them... for $100! He was just the type that would do such a thing on the spur of the moment. John was very sorry it happened as he knew how much I loved the MAC 10 and yet he said that I probably should have offered to buy it from him and who knows. But at the time he'd said it was a keeper so go figure. Just goes to show even when you say something it's no guarantee. Probably the lesson here is be persistent (without being a pain of course).

My motto is: It never hurts to ask. If you get a no... you're no worse off than you started. If you get a maybe your foot is in the door. If you get a yes... well, look at what you gain. But by all means... do not be afraid to ask or at least state flat out that "if" the owner ever wants to get rid of the item of your desire... to please keep you in mind.

Now... having said that... I love you all and if you ever want to give away your collections, which I also love... please keep me in mind.

Dan

[Brian Wolfe]

Hi Dan,

That's good to know as none of my family is interested in my collection.

Since you are the first to ask....

On the other hand I am working on a plan to take it with me.

I'll keep you posted on how that works out.

I think the point I was trying to make (poorly, as turns out) is that a collector who has purchased something legally from an honest source does not owe it to the family to return it. In one of the cases I mentioned the lady was very ignorant and demanded I return the medals at my loss, turns out her only connection was the last name.

I agree with both you and Chris, it's up to the present owner and each case may be a different set of circumstances.

Regards

Brian

[Hauptmann]

Hi Dan,

That's good to know as none of my family is interested in my collection.

Since you are the first to ask....

On the other hand I am working on a plan to take it with me.

I'll keep you posted on how that works out.

I think the point I was trying to make (poorly, as turns out) is that a collector who has purchased something legally from an honest source does not owe it to the family to return it. In one of the cases I mentioned the lady was very ignorant and demanded I return the medals at my loss, turns out her only connection was the last name.

I agree with both you and Chris, it's up to the present owner and each case may be a different set of circumstances.

Regards

Brian

Brian... even were I to "inherit" your collection... I would not want it for a loooooooooooooooooong time to come. Would rather have you around... you're infinitely more important!!!!

Dan