Imperial 5 place medal group spanning 40+ years

[Brian Wolfe]

Hello Everyone,

I just got this group in a few days ago and wanted to share it with you. It's not your typical group with an EK2, Honour Cross etc. etc.

This groups consists of,

1904-06 South West Africa Campaign Medal in bronze for combatants

1897 Centennial Medal

1914-18 non-combatant's Honour Cross

25 years Faithful Service Cross

40 Years Faithful Service Cross

I'm pretty confident as to this group being genuine, it has the feel and look of an authentic group.

The recipient started their career in the late 1890s (evident by the 1897 Centennial Medal) and served through the First World and into the Third Reich period. I don't kown if this person was a male or female and I am hoping some of the members might comment on this. I am asking this question based on no evidence that the recipient was actually engaged in combat while in South West Africa but may have only served in a conflict area and there was no combat indicated during WWI so could there be a possibility this could have been awarded to a nurse or some other non-combatant profession? I would like to hear your comments.

I really like this group for some reason and I hope you like it as well.

Regards

Brian

[Brian Wolfe]

Here is the reverse of the group. The whole thing has the "feel" of being genuine so I hope that I have made a good purchase. You'll notice that I do take chances on my purchases, somtimes to my disappointment.

Thanks for taking a look and your comments are always welcomed.

Regards

Brian

[Naxos]

Hello Everyone,

I just got this group in a few days ago and wanted to share it with you. It's not your typical group with an EK2, Honour Cross etc. etc.

This groups consists of,

1904-06 South West Africa Campaign Medal in bronze for combatants

1897 Centennial Medal

1914-18 non-combatant's Honour Cross

25 years Faithful Service Cross

40 Years Faithful Service Cross

The recipient started their career in the late 1890s (evident by the 1897 Centennial Medal) and served through the First World and into the Third Reich period. I don't kown if this person was a male or female and I am hoping some of the members might comment on this. I am asking this question based on no evidence that the recipient was actually engaged in combat while in South West Africa but may have only served in a conflict area and there was no combat indicated during WWI so could there be a possibility this could have been awarded to a nurse or some other non-combatant profession? I would like to hear your comments.

I really like this group for some reason and I hope you like it as well.

Regards

Brian

IMO,

Most likley SWA combatant then after his military service during WWI well into TR era he was a police officer at home.

nice bar, btw

Edited September 25, 2010 by Naxos

[Chris Boonzaier]

Is it possible to have both crosses on the bar? I dont think police qualified for these...

[Brian Wolfe]

Is it possible to have both crosses on the bar? I dont think police qualified for these...

Hi Chris,

True they are not the Police Medals and I was thinking perhaps more of a civil servent position, Customs or something like that.

Brian

[Naxos]

Hi Chris,

True they are not the Police Medals and I was thinking perhaps more of a civil servent position, Customs or something like that.

Brian

or: railways, post office,

[Brian Wolfe]

IMO,

Most likley SWA combatant then after his military service during WWI well into TR era he was a police officer at home.

nice bar, btw

Hi Hardy,

Thanks for the comment on the bar.

I was thinking that the crosses were not the police cross and that perhaps the recipient went into the civil service. As I mentioned to Chris perhaps the fellow went into the Customs Service or something similar. We do know it was some sort of service to his country...but what?

Regards

Brian

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi Hardy,

Thanks for the comment on the bar.

I was thinking that the crosses were not the police cross and that perhaps the recipient went into the civil service. As I mentioned to Chris perhaps the fellow went into the Customs Service or something similar. We do know it was some sort of service to his country...but what?

Regards

Brian

But they came out in 1938, silver for 25 years of service up to that date.... there can be no way to jump to 40 years (gold) between 38 and 45.

I think of these as for teachers etc. (As Naxos says, railways post office)

i may be wrong, but did customs not get the police one?

[Chris Boonzaier]

I am pretty sure I remember from my 3rd Reich collecting days only one of these was possible on a bar... but I no longer mave my books..... :-(

[Brian Wolfe]

But they came out in 1938, silver for 25 years of service up to that date.... there can be no way to jump to 40 years (gold) between 38 and 45.

I think of these as for teachers etc. (As Naxos says, railways post office)

i may be wrong, but did customs not get the police one?

Hi Chris,

Now you mention it Customs probably would get the Police Medal as their work was along the same lines at time. I'm only speculating here...not very "professional-like" I agree.

I alway like to stay away for doing exacly what I have just done and am about to do. In this case, trying to make the medals fit the time frames. I wonder if the recipient had a lot more years in than he needed to qualify for the 25 year service cross when he applied. Then in a few short years later qualified for the 40 Year Cross and applied for that. On very close examination of the back along the top edge it would look like the group was all mounted at the same time, after the 40 year cross was received of course. It was not added later on as is sometimes the case with Honour Crosses. If the ribbons had been new I would have run away from this one, being a novice in the collecting of German Medals.

Regards

Brian

[Chris Boonzaier]

I found a German site where it says what I thought I remembered... only the highest grade awarded may be worn... so even if he had at a later date been awarded the gold one.. the silver one would have to be deep sixed. But still, if you were awarded a 25 year medal in 38... and awards were stopped in 42... you cannot have made it to the 40 year medal by then. Any chance the ribbons are good, but someone switched medals?

[Chris Boonzaier]

i.e it originally had police ones, that were then switched?

[Brian Wolfe]

Hi Chris,

Well, you know medal collecting, anything is possible. I have taken three photos showing a closer view of the bar. The first is of the left hand side just so the whole bar is show up close.

[Brian Wolfe]

This is the right-hand side showing the service crosses and the Honour Cross. You can see the Honour Cross attachment ring area is opened up, possibly from age, as is the silver service cross. The gold service cross ribbons are opened up even more.

A closer view of the two crosses in question is next.

[Brian Wolfe]

Hi Chris,

This is about as close a view that I can get clearly.

If the Police Medal was removed then I may have to look for one to switch for the Service Cross, but which one and for how many years service, is the question. The only Police Medal I have is in a group and the eagle is stitched onto the ribbon above the medal. I've seen others where there looks to be a separate piece of blue ribbon attached above the medal with the eagle stitched into that piece of ribbon. There is no sign that anything else was ever attached to either ribbon above these medals.

I love a mystery.

What are your thoughts after viewing this more closely?

Regards

Brian

[VtwinVince]

Nice 'character' bar, I like it. Don't forget that the Treudienst Kreuz was also given for time served in the DLV, NSFK, NSKK and other para-military units.

[saschaw]

But still, if you were awarded a 25 year medal in 38... and awards were stopped in 42... you cannot have made it to the 40 year medal by then.

As Brain explained, you can! It's still against the regulation to wear both, but I don't think this to be the first bar worn against regulation we see here... I'm not even seeing very this for the first time.

The wearer was male without a doubt. I yet have to see a bronze South west africa medal to a woman. 1897 medal as well is highly unusual to a woman, unless she was a nurse in 1870/71 - which (s)he wasn't.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

here is the passage...

"Wird das Treudienst-Ehrenzeichen an der Ordensschnalle getragen so sind sie an der für staatliche Dienstauszeichnungen vorgeschriebenen Stelle anzubringen. Bei Beleihungen mit mehreren Stufen derselben Auszeichnung durfte stets nur eine, und zwar die zuletzt verliehene Stufe getragen werden. "

i.e. only one may be worn, the highest grade awarded.

As Sascha says, maybe someone barking in the face of regulations.

best

Chris

[Mervyn Mitton]

Brian - a nice old group. Always remember the old descriptive term - be it ,British, German or, any other Country. 'Mounted as Worn' - in other words - if that was how the owner wore it, then it should be left as an example. I am pleased that you are collecting SWA medals - there is a good market for them in SA and for European troops a high number covered only officers and NCO's - most of the troops were Askaris.

[Brian Wolfe]

Brian - a nice old group. Always remember the old descriptive term - be it ,British, German or, any other Country. 'Mounted as Worn' - in other words - if that was how the owner wore it, then it should be left as an example. I am pleased that you are collecting SWA medals - there is a good market for them in SA and for European troops a high number covered only officers and NCO's - most of the troops were Askaris.

Hello Mervyn,

I am always amazed that some veterans would wear their medals the way they saw fit and not necessarily according to the regulations. Speaking about the Third Reich in this case I would have thought that would be one place were you would want to conform to regulations, OR ELSE! However, we've seen that this was not always the case. My own father added a campaign medal to his group because he believed he had earned it. I wasn't there so I have no right to criticize him on his decision.

Chris has made a very good point regarding this group. I would think that the police medal would fetch a much better price than either of the service medals so switching them may have been done by the dealer. I will say that all of the "problems" of wrong medals being on group ribbons has come from one dealer that I buy from. Or perhaps more accurately, used to buy from. Upon a closer inspection of this group I would have to say that the condition of both service crosses looks correct, that is to say, they look like they have been together since they were mounted. Before I am seen as trashing this dealer let me say that in all fairness it could be that the dealer's suppliers are making the switch before passing them along. It really is a matter of collector beware...I should try to put that in Latin, it would sound ever so intellectual. Drat! Missed my chance once again.

Having said all of that, I don't think I will switch any of the crosses of the group in favour of a police medal as I could not be 100% sure of being correct when completed. In the case of the wrong medal being on a ribbon I think nothing of switching the medals in order to bring the group back to the way it should be.

Regards

Brian

[Ulsterman]

There was a lot of confusion regarding the wear of double awards after the long service regs changed in 1936/38.

There are LOTs of photos of double civilian long service awards being worn by old geezers.

If I had to bet I'd reckon this chap was in trains, post office or signals somehow.

[HeikoGrusdat]

Agreed.....

I have seen some medal bars in my life with TWO 3.Reich civil service awards , for shure possible and I would not change anything on this bar....

and yes , for shure he was a "he" and not a woman... ;)

[Ulsterman]

Oh and just to add a note- Rick added a photo in the ribbon bar article a while back with an imperial navy vet wearing a similar bar. I think the chap was a river pilot in Hamburg.

I have always wondered if German merchant seaman qualified for the Hindenburg Cross the way the Brits did.

[webr55]

But still, if you were awarded a 25 year medal in 38... and awards were stopped in 42... you cannot have made it to the 40 year medal by then.

Yes, it's possible... let's say he had 38 years by 1938 which got him the silver cross - 40 by 1940 got him the golden one.

Chris is of course right with regard to the regulations -- BUT an old civil servant (maybe teacher) was exactly the person to be proud of all his awards and wear them ALL.

Ah, and remember this thread: Mistakes in wear.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Chris is of course right with regard to the regulations -- BUT an old civil servant (maybe teacher) was exactly the person to be proud of all his awards and wear them ALL.

Maybe... there is an old expression in Germany along the lines of "the Lord God knows everything, but teachers think they know more" ;-)