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Here is a question for a champion....

Medal bar with EK 2, Gold Bravery, MVK2nd class with swords and crown, Hindenburg, Service medal... Missing on the bar is the Gold bravery medal, it must have been a real gold one as it was an early 1915 issue. Seperate with it is an official issue gold plated silver one (the later war one with "1000" and crescent). This is mint and on a long ribbon (ie. probably "as issued").

Also with it EK1, wound badge, 25 year Beamten service cross.

The man was in the LW in WW2, and was killed in an air raid during the war. I assume a beamter, and junior grade officer or senior NCO in WW2.

Medals from the family, in a box since the war...

So, now the question...

What could have happed to the real gold medal? And why an official "Ries" later war award piece loose with it?

1) If the family had flogged the pure gold medal to buy vodka.. why bother to get an official gold plated silver one to replace it? Expensive and NOT easy to find. I find this very unlikely.

2) Did the man himself sell the gold one and get himself a later wartime one?

3) Was there a drive for scrap gold and dutiful soldiers gave in their gold and got a silver one?

4) He seems to have worn the bar in the 1930s... the Gold plated one is in almost perfect nick though...

I have no doubts this is kosher direct from the son, who had it in a box and has had little to do with it since the war...

So... where did it go?

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Here is a question for a champion....

Medal bar with EK 2, Gold Bravery, MVK2nd class with swords and crown, Hindenburg, Service medal... Missing on the bar is the Gold bravery medal, it must have been a real gold one as it was an early 1915 issue. Seperate with it is an official issue gold plated silver one (the later war one with "1000" and crescent). This is mint and on a long ribbon (ie. probably "as issued").

Also with it EK1, wound badge, 25 year Beamten service cross.

The man was in the LW in WW2, and was killed in an air raid during the war. I assume a beamter, and junior grade officer or senior NCO in WW2.

Medals from the family, in a box since the war...

So, now the question...

What could have happed to the real gold medal? And why an official "Ries" later war award piece loose with it?

1) If the family had flogged the pure gold medal to buy vodka.. why bother to get an official gold plated silver one to replace it? Expensive and NOT easy to find. I find this very unlikely.

2) Did the man himself sell the gold one and get himself a later wartime one?

3) Was there a drive for scrap gold and dutiful soldiers gave in their gold and got a silver one?

4) He seems to have worn the bar in the 1930s... the Gold plated one is in almost perfect nick though...

I have no doubts this is kosher direct from the son, who had it in a box and has had little to do with it since the war...

So... where did it go?

Chris,

I think the answer lies either in his service details. As you are aware in many cases the recipient received a riband immediately on the award , which he wore on his tunic, a long time before he received his medal. If he were to be missing, wounded, or P.O.W. it is possible he never received his gold medal due to this and was given the bravery medal at the end of the war when repatriated or recovered. Or the other possibility is that the during the severe hyperinflation of 1923-24 when by the end 5 billion (that is 5 million million) marks were worth 1 US dollar. He may have been forced to pawn/sell his gold medal in order not to starve.

That's my 2 pfennigs worth.

All the best,

Paul

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Chris, you got it? You were three or four minutes faster than I....... what a luck.

:cheers:

No idea what happened to the Gold medal, but Paul's explanation sounds reasonable.

when by the end 5 billion (that is 5 million million) marks

Isn't it 5 thousand millions?! So much money for so few bread. :o(

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Chris, you got it? You were three or four minutes faster than I....... what a luck.

:cheers:

No idea what happened to the Gold medal, but Paul's explanation sounds reasonable.

Isn't it 5 thousand millions?! So much money for so few bread. :o(

I never say I "have" something until the postman gives it to me... it brings bad luck !!

By coincidence I know the seller (met him about 10 years ago) and knew of the group... but did not know that until after the sale.

From the bavarian RIR22, not THE greatest citation, or most exciting battle... but it will do for me... ;-)

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This thread is useless without pics......

A thousand million is a milliard (as the German banknotes of the 1923-24 period state). A billion is a million a million million. America calls it a thousand million so that they can boast of having a few billionaires.

Paul

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Here is a question for a champion....

Medal bar with EK 2, Gold Bravery, MVK2nd class with swords and crown, Hindenburg, Service medal... Missing on the bar is the Gold bravery medal, it must have been a real gold one as it was an early 1915 issue. Seperate with it is an official issue gold plated silver one (the later war one with "1000" and crescent). This is mint and on a long ribbon (ie. probably "as issued").

Also with it EK1, wound badge, 25 year Beamten service cross.

The man was in the LW in WW2, and was killed in an air raid during the war. I assume a beamter, and junior grade officer or senior NCO in WW2.

Medals from the family, in a box since the war...

So, now the question...

What could have happed to the real gold medal? And why an official "Ries" later war award piece loose with it?

1) If the family had flogged the pure gold medal to buy vodka.. why bother to get an official gold plated silver one to replace it? Expensive and NOT easy to find. I find this very unlikely.

2) Did the man himself sell the gold one and get himself a later wartime one?

3) Was there a drive for scrap gold and dutiful soldiers gave in their gold and got a silver one?

4) He seems to have worn the bar in the 1930s... the Gold plated one is in almost perfect nick though...

I have no doubts this is kosher direct from the son, who had it in a box and has had little to do with it since the war...

So... where did it go?

Hello Chris:

A great group! Congratulations!

I believe that the silver-gilt medal was the only medal received by the soldier. There were often severe delays in processing recommendations for awards due to a variety of factors (hospital recovery, POW, etc.) as mentioned by Paul. The action may have happened in 1915, but the award itself was probably presented in 1916 (or 1917 or 1918). If the actual award document existed, it would show when the actual award was processed for presentation. As you know, these official silver-gilt medals are much scarcer than the gold medals.

It is possible that awards were made after 1918 (citation documents from the 1920's exist) just like post-war MMJO awards. Most citation documents were prepared in 1918 if I recall correctly. The 1920's citations may be official replacements however and may not indicate a late award. I believe that I may have seen an actual 1919 award document, but I will have to research this further (I believe that a photo may exist in O'Connor's book, Volume 1).

It is also possible (as you mentioned) that soldiers were given the option to "trade-in" their gold medals for silver-gilt medals to help the war effort and show their patriotism. I have not seen literature regarding this, but I do know of certain non-wartime awards for which a recipient could trade in their gold medal for a newer-issue (non-gold).

Best regards

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Indeed, Schiessplatzmeister nailed it... I think..

"Am 21.2.1915 hatte das b. Res.Inf.Rgt 22 den Reichsackerkopf zu stürmen. Gegen 9 Uhr vormittag begann der Angriff des I. Batls. das sofort sehr starkes Feuer erhielt und dadurch schwere Verluste erlitt. Die links davon an einem Waldrand in Bereitschaft liegende 7. Komp. erhielt daher Befehl halbrechts vorzugehen und den Angriff des I. Batls. zu unterstützen. In Höhe dieses Bataillons angekommen, sah der damalige Unteroffizier Riethmann, wie 2 Mann aus der Schützenlinie rechts von ihm aufsprangen und nach vorwärts liefen, nach kaum 30 m aber tot zusammenstürzten. Dadurch aufmerksam gemacht, bemerkte er, daß etwa 70 m vor der Front ein Schwerverwundeter lag und sich in seinen Schmerzen krümmte. Kurz entschlossen wandte sich Riethmann an den ihm zunächst liegenden Inftr. Vogt mit der Bitte, mit ihm den Versuch zu machen, den Schwerverwundeten zu bergen. Im stärksten feindl. Kugelregen gelangten die beiden auch glücklich zu dem schwerverwundeten Hptm. Holler und brachten ihn glücklich zu dem etwa 200 m hinter der Feuerlinie eingerichteten Notverbandplatz."

"Damalige" .. ie. he was Unteroffizier at the time of the action, but had been promoted at the time of the award....

I am trying to get his records to clear this up :-)

best

Chris

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OK,

Hauptmann gave me the info needed to clear this up....

Our man was not awarded the Gold medal until late 1918-early 1919.. although the action took place in Feb 1915...

Here is a question... by late 18, early 19... the folks awarding the medals had many acts of bravery accross the desk... do you think they raised or lowered the bar when approving awards?

Either way, it is great, means it must be his award piece....

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Here is a brief look at his career...

24.2.1893 Born Sendlebach by Lohr

2.6.1909 Uffz Schule

25.7.11 Gefreiter

1.10.11 8 IR

21.10.11 Uffz

13.12.14 7. Komp RIR 22

3.3.15 Vizefeldw.

7.3.15 wounded bullet shoulder, hospital Freiburg

13.3.15 EK2

10.5.15 to 2.EB 18 IR

11.5.15 Genesenden Komp

12.6.16 III Batl 27 IR

29.6.16 27 IR into the field

12.7.16 12. Komp IR27

28.7.-4.10.16 Stellungskampf Ober Elsass

10.10.16-12.10.16 Gebirgskämpfe XXXXXX

10.10.16 Offz Stellv

12.10.16 7. Komp IR27

24.12.16 10. Komp IR27

19.5.17 MVK 2Kl

14.7.17 Feld Laz 28

3.8.17 Release Laz

5.8.17 Erholungsheim

22.9.17 EK1

10-27.5.18 Stellungskampf B Rheims

16.5.18 Wound Badge

4.6.18 Kriegs Laz 22a

14.7.18 Laz Dresden (Friedrichsbach)

27.8.18 I./5 IR Rekrt Depot

30.11.18 to Stellv Kdo II AK

24.1.19 8 IR

I will of course post the medals when i get them.

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A more complete run down... Medals should be here in about 12 hours... :-)

24.2.1893 Born Sendlebach by Lohr

2.6.1909 Uffz Schule

25.7.11 Gefreiter

1.10.11 8 IR

21.10.11 Uffz

13.12.14 7. Komp RIR 22 (8 BRD)

7.2.-7.3.15 Stellungskampf in Oberelsass

19.2-7.3.15 Schlacht bei Münster

3.3.15 Vizefeldw.

7.3.15 wounded bullet shoulder, hospital Freiburg

13.3.15 EK2

10.5.15 to 2.EB 18 IR (?)

11.5.15 Genesenden Komp

12.6.16 24 IR

29.6.16 27 IR into the field (12 BD)

12.7.16 12. Komp IR27

28.7.-4.10.16 Stellungskampf Oberelsass

Transport to Romania

10.10.16 Offz Stellv

12.10.16 7. Komp IR27

17.10.16-28.11.16 Gebirgskämpfe Torzburger Pass

Fighting by Dragoslavele, Mount Matelas

20-21.10.16 Storming Mount Klabucetu

29-30.11.1916 Verfolgungs Gefechte bei Campulung

1-3.12.1916 Schlacht am Arges

9-20.12.1916 Verfolgungskämpfe an Jalomita-Prahova und Bazaul

21-27.12.1916 Schlacht bei Rimnicul Sarat

24.12.16 10. Komp IR27

28.12.1916-3.1.1917 Verfolgungskämpfe nach der Schlacht bei Rimnicul Sarat

4-8.1.1917 Schlacht an der Putna

9.1.-14.7.17 Stellungskrieg am Putna und Sereth

19.5.17 MVK 2Kl

14.7.17 Feld Laz 28

3.8.17 Release Laz

5.8.17 Erholungsheim

22.9.17 EK1

10-27.5.18 Stellungskampf B Rheims

27.5.1918 Storming the Chemain des Dames

16.5.18 Wound Badge

4.6.18 Kriegs Laz 22a

14.7.18 Laz Dresden (Friedrichsbach)

27.8.18 I./5 IR Rekrt Depot

30.11.18 to Stellv Kdo II AK

24.1.19 8 IR

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Here is a question for a champion....

Medal bar with EK 2, Gold Bravery, MVK2nd class with swords and crown, Hindenburg, Service medal... Missing on the bar is the Gold bravery medal, it must have been a real gold one as it was an early 1915 issue. Seperate with it is an official issue gold plated silver one (the later war one with "1000" and crescent). This is mint and on a long ribbon (ie. probably "as issued").

Also with it EK1, wound badge, 25 year Beamten service cross.

The man was in the LW in WW2, and was killed in an air raid during the war. I assume a beamter, and junior grade officer or senior NCO in WW2.

Medals from the family, in a box since the war...

So, now the question...

What could have happed to the real gold medal? And why an official "Ries" later war award piece loose with it?

1) If the family had flogged the pure gold medal to buy vodka.. why bother to get an official gold plated silver one to replace it? Expensive and NOT easy to find. I find this very unlikely.

2) Did the man himself sell the gold one and get himself a later wartime one?

3) Was there a drive for scrap gold and dutiful soldiers gave in their gold and got a silver one?

4) He seems to have worn the bar in the 1930s... the Gold plated one is in almost perfect nick though...

I have no doubts this is kosher direct from the son, who had it in a box and has had little to do with it since the war...

So... where did it go?

Neal O'Connor's AAOIGIWWI-Vol I Bavaria has this to say about it, pg 115 paragraph 2:

"Originally, all Gold Bravery Medals were made of the genuine material. As the war progressed, Germany suffered from a shortage of precious metals. By the fall of 1916, the Reichsbank was no longer able to supply the makers of orders insignia with sufficient gold for their needs. As a consequence, in an Imperial Decree on November 16, 1916, Kaiser Wilhelm II authorized the manufacture of orders and decorations that heretofore had been made in real gold to be made in silver-gilt. In the Hessenthal and Schreiber total of 1,198 Gold Bravery Medals, the breakdown they give is 745 in the real material and 453 in silver-gilt.

The first recipient of a Gold Bravery Medal in World War I was Obermatrosen Bruno Geist. He received it on November 6, 1914 as a crew member on the U-9....//...awards of the medals continued to be made retroactively after the Armistice. The last were approved in March 1920."

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It is possible that awards were made after 1918 (citation documents from the 1920's exist) just like post-war MMJO awards. Most citation documents were prepared in 1918 if I recall correctly. The 1920's citations may be official replacements however and may not indicate a late award. I believe that I may have seen an actual 1919 award document, but I will have to research this further (I believe that a photo may exist in O'Connor's book, Volume 1).

Here is that award document the Schießplatzmeister is referring to. This was bestowed to Redenbach, dated April 1, 1915 and countersigned on April 9, 1915.

What is very interesting to this specific discussion is the next award document, also for Redenbach's Gold Bravery Medal but dated October 1918. It describes the actions he took to earn the award back in November 1914.

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The formal citation for Redenbach's Bav. Gold Bravery Medal from Neal O'Connor's AAOIGIWWI-Vol I Bavaria.

Earned on November 8th, 1914.

Awarded April 1, 1915.

Formal write-up on the meritorious action signed on October 15, 1918.

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The formal citation for Redenbach's Bav. Gold Bravery Medal from Neal O'Connor's AAOIGIWWI-Vol I Bavaria.

Earned on November 8th, 1914.

Awarded April 1, 1915.

Formal write-up on the meritorious action signed on October 15, 1918.

Hi,

Thanks for the pics,

here is one from 1934!!

http://www.kaiserscross.com/40047/40450.html

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Here is that award document the Schießplatzmeister is referring to. This was bestowed to Redenbach, dated April 1, 1915 and countersigned on April 9, 1915.

What is very interesting to this specific discussion is the next award document, also for Redenbach's Gold Bravery Medal but dated October 1918. It describes the actions he took to earn the award back in November 1914.

Hello:

No, actually, I was referring to the provisional award document to Georg Schwartz dated October 24, 1919 which appears later in the book on page 149. His citation document is also shown which was dated November 20, 1925. He was awarded the silver TKM on October 24, 1919 for actions on April 21, 1918 and on June 9, 1918. This is proof that TKM awards actually did continue after the cessation of hostilities.

Best regards

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Hello:

No, actually, I was referring to the provisional award document to Georg Schwartz dated October 24, 1919 which appears later in the book on page 149. His citation document is also shown which was dated November 20, 1925. He was awarded the silver TKM on October 24, 1919 for actions on April 21, 1918 and on June 9, 1918. This is proof that TKM awards actually did continue after the cessation of hostilities.

Best regards

Ich bitte Ihre entschuldigung.

I will look at page 149 tonight with great interest!

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So for a year or so after the war they reassesed cases and made a small amount of catch up awards.

It is the case with "my guy"...

Take into account the following... the unit (BRIR22)is hastily formed with guys from all over, sent into battle, he does his action, the officer he saves is then gone, he gets wounded a few weeks later and leaves the unit as well. The BRIR22 continues its war and forgets he ever existed... he is in hospital, then goes to another regiment on another front... drops through the cracks in the floorboards for all intents and purposes...

In 1919 it may have been that the officer he saved said.."hey... did Riethmann ever get a medal for what he did?"

now here is a question for a champion... by 1919 the officers would have seen all kinds of acts, bravery, citations etc... would they now be stricter and more objective (ie. raising the bar) than the awards made at the beginning of the war?

From the handful of "catch-up" awards it does not seem like they lowered the bar...

Best

Chris

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So for a year or so after the war they reassesed cases and made a small amount of catch up awards.

It is the case with "my guy"...

Take into account the following... the unit (BRIR22)is hastily formed with guys from all over, sent into battle, he does his action, the officer he saves is then gone, he gets wounded a few weeks later and leaves the unit as well. The BRIR22 continues its war and forgets he ever existed... he is in hospital, then goes to another regiment on another front... drops through the cracks in the floorboards for all intents and purposes...

In 1919 it may have been that the officer he saved said.."hey... did Riethmann ever get a medal for what he did?"

now here is a question for a champion... by 1919 the officers would have seen all kinds of acts, bravery, citations etc... would they now be stricter and more objective (ie. raising the bar) than the awards made at the beginning of the war?

From the handful of "catch-up" awards it does not seem like they lowered the bar...

Best

Chris

Although not a "champion" by any stretch of the imagination (just ask my wife), from what evidence I have seen, there were probably very few post-1918 TKM awards. I imagine that several factors influenced this. It is probable that there were a multitude of applications right after 1918 for awards which were not made during the War. In addition to an influx of applications received "all at once", the military and government apparatus for processing such award applications was undoubtedly decimated and in a chaotic state. Also, the funds for such awards were undoubtedly no longer as easily available. It is my opinion that only in "exceptional" cases were retroactive awards made. The award document to Schwartz is the ONLY post-1918 award document that I have every seen (and I have been paying attention to these documents for awhile now).

So, my vote is that the "bar" was actually raised.

Best regards

Edited by Schießplatzmeister
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  • 2 years later...

Because Redenbach was mentioned, here his medal bar, incl. the real gold medal.

attachicon.gifOrdenspange.jpg

Regards

Alex

Hello Alex:

Congratulations regarding owning this wonderful group. I remember when it sold on a German dealer's website a few years ago. There were also some nice photographs with it if I remember correctly.

Best regards

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Unfortunately I don't own the group ;-(

It is a great group including a Meybauer made bavarian pilot badge and all documents.

Regards

Alex

Hello Alex,

very, very nice bar :love: .

Redenbach was also awarded with the EK1 and the woundbadge in gold.

On the last position of the bar had to be a bavarian 9 year sevice-medal.

Do you have a picture of him?

regards Andreas

Edited by spolei
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