EK 1870 WIDE frame 1870 EK2

[gregM]

Hi Guys,

Here is a 1870 EK2 that I would like to post for your opinions.

As you can see it looks bigger than the 1870 with oaks next to it. The over all dimensions

are the same. 43mm x 43mm. However the flared outer arms are different. 26mm compared

to 24mm.

[attachmentid=23238]

[gregM]

Here is the back side. If you look at the oak leafs, The oaks on the wide frame cross have a span

of 21mm. The span on the other cross is 18mm. Also in the first photo the "W" is also wider.

[attachmentid=23242]

[joe campbell]

any idea what happened to the eye?

joe

[gregM]

My guess is that the cross was ripped off a tunic either on purpose or more than likely

it got snagged on something.

Edited January 17, 2006 by gregM

[Gordon Williamson]

Greg,

This looks like it may be a 3rd Reich period manufactured 1870 EK2. Strange though it sounds, 1870s were still being manufactured during the 3rd Reich ( EK2, EK1 and Grand Cross) along side the 3rd Reich period 1914s. Presumably as museum display pieces , or perhaps even for the collector market of the day ( medal collecting was a recognised and permitted hobby, though a special permit was required).

Certainly the shape and dimensions of the frame are what I'd expect to see in a Third Reich piece.

[Stogieman]

Interesting comparison Greg. I concur with Gordon that there were pieces made during the 1934-45 era, but I've never really seen one until now.

[gregM]

Thanks for your help!

It never occured to me it might be a TR piece. The quality is much better

then I would have expected in a TR era cross.

Thanks,

Greg

[Gordon Williamson]

Here is another TR examle, this time with Oaks

[Chris Boonzaier]

I once had a catalog from the early 30's... you could buy 1870 and 1914 crosses from them... An 1870 EK1 cost the same as a 1914 EK1 :-)

What a pity they did not have photos....

[joe campbell]

Thanks for your help!

It never occured to me it might be a TR piece. The quality is much better

then I would have expected in a TR era cross.

Thanks,

Greg

there is some schizophrenia in the TR pieces...

remember that the craftsmen who made the beautiful

medal bars and the vast array of EK ephemera were

still active in the 33-45 time frame. i think the reason

you see a relatively small number of pieces which

remind you of imperial style/quality is because these

artisans were initially able to ply their trade.

then came the regulations, memos, instructions,

prohibitions. consider the number of crosses made/issued

in 1939 vs 1941....

it was a setup for a loss of "uniquity", even for the

remakes of EK's of times past.

joe

[gregM]

Not that I am questioning the knowledge of those with WAY more experience than

myself BUT would a TR era cross have the bump on the frame where the ring attaches?

I have seen other 1870s with this feature but wonder if this would carry through to the

1930s-40s.

Just thinking out loud

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

there are a couple of WW2 makers who had the bump, cannot remember which ones (off hand).

best

Chris

[Alex K]

Not that I am questioning the knowledge of those with WAY more experience than

myself BUT would a TR era cross have the bump on the frame where the ring attaches?

I have seen other 1870s with this feature but wonder if this would carry through to the

1930s-40s.

Just thinking out loud

One maker was Wachtler & Lange

Piece attached

regards

Alex

[gregM]

thanks

[hunyadi]

Alex - looking at it I think you even posted the correct maker. I think this is a W&L? But there are frame characteristices that I see in both of these EK's.

[Alex K]

Hi hunyadi, That's what I thought straight away, they are very W & L looking rims

regards

[gregM]

I appreciate your help with this.

Here is a scan showing the corners that you had highlighted.

IMO they are a similar style but they do not match. It's hard to say for sure but

the beading at the corners does not look like a match to me. Close but not quite.

Edited May 28, 2007 by gregM

[hunyadi]

Yes - with the better scan I can now "see" better the frame. Close - but no cigar...

[gregM]

a better scan as requested

[Alex K]

Hi GregM, you're right, similar but not the same. The inner corners on yours have a distinct cross-hatch, the W & L doesn't.

regards

Alex

[gregM]

Hi Guys,

Here is an update on my quest to try to figure out this Ek2.

There have been 2 more of these oversized 1870 Ek2s show up in the last

year. One from a member over at WAF and also one posted here by Eric "monfort1"

just resently. I put together an email To Detlev showing links to this thread and to

all of the other threads discussing these particular crosses.

His reply to me was that the wideframed 1870 is a good variation made post 1900

and sold as a private purchase item. ( these were NOT 1871-1873 issue pieces )

I thought this might be interesting to some of you.

Here is a link that leads to Eric's cross--

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=4965&hl=

Edited January 25, 2008 by gregM

[Steve campbell]

The Collector's Guild had an 1870 EK1 that was said to be of the TR era for sale awhile back. The picture may still be there.

[gregM]

My understanding was that these are in the same catagory and (aproximate) time as

the Jubilee crosses.