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I just received this group which I had won on ebay. But I find it strange that the owner had used an unofficial type-3 Belgium/France Victory Medal for his grouping.

Hello Jim,

I would echo the same as Tim. It is not altogether unusual to see the unofficial French-Belgian vic on such groups. The official French victory medal was instituted on 24 January 1919 and in the Ministerial Instruction of 7 October 1922. Such official examples were therefore unlikely to be available on a large scale until almost the end of 1922. This was a long period of three years for veterans to wait.

In contrast the Commemorative Medal of the Great War was created on 23 June 1920.

There were three unofficial French victories produced between the 1919 and 1922 period; the French-Belgian example, the C.Charles variety, and the M. Pautot - L. Mattei variety. It should also be noted that the French recipients were provided with the award certificates and then had to obtain the medals themselves. In most cases the harder to obtain items are the certificates and not the medals.

Of note, however, is the Combattant Cross. This was created in June 1930 which in some way dates the production of this bar.

Both the War Commemorative and Combattant Cross were, by the look of the makers mark, produced by the Paris firm of Janvier-Berchot.

It is likely that the wearer used whatever medals were available at the time.

Regards,

Rob

Edited by RobW
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I just received this group which I had won on ebay. But I find it strange that the owner had used an unofficial type-3 Belgium/France Victory Medal for his grouping.

Hi Johnny

I think this is a kind of unofficial French 4. The type Dubois UNIFAC.

1 Charles

2 Dubois UNIFAC

3 Pautot-Mattei

4 Pautot UNIFAC

http://www.medailles1914-1918.fr/francemedailledb.html

Lambert

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  • 2 weeks later...

To all,

I have posted this item on a related thread on the French medal section, that is ongoing, but there is also relevance to post it here as it is specific to the vic series.

It is an authority document to wear the ribbon for the French victory medal.

Of note is that this document, which is dated 12 February 1920, only provides the authority for the wearer to wear the ribbon and not the medal as it had not yet been approved. The reference to the decree establishing the medal, including the colour of the ribbon is contained at the top of the document (29 October 1919) which was followed by another Ministerial Instruction of 4 November 1919.

There is no mention of the subsequent law instituting the actual medal which occurred on 22 July 1922 nor of the implementing Ministerial Instruction of 7 October 1922. This would be pertinent given the award date of February 1920.

I have a couple of these 'ribbon authorities' and they are a bit more difficult to find than the latter French victory medal certificate.

Regards,

Rob

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  • 3 months later...

Hi Gents,

My latest acquisition - the French Official type by Morlon but, like Lambert's, with the triangle mark on the reverse, instead of the usual Paris Mint cornucopia,

Obverse:

frenchtri01.jpg

Reverse:

frenchtri02.jpg

And the close-up of the reverse to show the triangle mark:

frenchtri03.jpg

Under the glass I can make out what looks like an anchor design, or maybe the 'J - cross - B' to indicate the maker Janvier-Berchot. Can anyone confirm or refute this? There is no BR alongside the triangle. Any help will be much appreciated.

Bill

Edited by Bilco
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Hi Bill.

It's a beautiful medal, this right is a type Marlon by Janvier-Berchot. Recently I received another Vic French, type Marlon by "Paris Mint cornocopia & BR"

Lambert

Edited by lambert
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  • 1 month later...
  • 4 weeks later...

Hi Gents - I thought I might have something a little different here -

morlonnoBR01.jpg

Looks like a standard Morlon French Vic ...

morlonnoBR02.jpg

... but it appearsto have no 'BR' after the cornucopia, at least to a casual glance ...

morlonnoBR03-crop.jpg

... however, under magnification you can see two vestigal bumps where the 'BR' should be. There is very little to be felt if I run my thumb-nail over the spot, but after a couple of goes the bumps have got some highlighting, so are more visible than they were.

As the medal isn't worn at all I guess it's down to the die.

Bill

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Hi Gents,

Another variation on a theme of Morlon - my latest acquisition:

morlontribr03.jpg

With triangle of Janvier-Berchot and BR. It came on a piece of the British ribbon, which I've swopped for the proper French item.

Bill

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi Gents - More on the theme of Morlon! My latest acquisition 'avec boite et barette'

frenchboxed01-crop.jpg

frenchboxed02-crop.jpg

The box has no markings, but the bar has the remains of a blue paper label, with the initials G.D.G. on the right hand end.

This view of the reverse shows that the Paris Mint cornucopia and BR are very clear -

frenchboxed03-crop.jpg

Any comments welcome.

Bill

Edited by Bilco
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Hi Gents,

I need your expertise to resolve a little mystery. I have, temporarily, three examples of the Official French vic by Morlon, struck by the Paris Mint. Two of them have planchets exactly the same diameter, 35mm +, while the third is slightly but noticibly smaller - about 0.5mm. They are all the same thickness at the edge. However, the two bigger ones are thicker over the figure of Victory than the smaller one - if you lay them side by side, obverse uppermost, and put a straight-edge across the ladies' chests (and haven't we all done this at one time or another?) the smaller one is noticibly lower. Finally, the Paris Mint cornucopia and BR mark on the larger two is inset from the rim, while on the smaller it's right on the rim.

So is there any significance in one being smaller - is it a reissue, or just a different set of dies? Is a reissue going to be a bright finish compared with the original version?

Any comments welcome,

Bill

Edited by Bilco
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Hi Gents,

I have, temporarily, three examples of the Official French vic by Morlon, struck by the Paris Mint. Two of them have planchets exactly the same diameter, 35mm +, while the third is slightly but noticibly smaller - about 0.5mm. They are all the same thickness at the edge. However, the two bigger ones are thicker over the figure of Victory than the smaller one - if you lay them side by side, obverse uppermost, and put a straight-edge across the ladie's chests (and haven't we all done this at one time or another?) the smaller one is noticibly lower. Finally, the Paris Mint cornucopia and BR mark on the larger two is inset from the rim, while on the smaller it's right on the rim.

So is there any significance in one being smaller - is it a reissue, or just a different set of dies?

Hello Bill,

Given the vast quantities of the French vic produced I would suggest that this is simply a slightly different die.

Is a reissue going to be a bright finish compared with the original version?

In regards the French vic Re-Issue; it is definitely of a more shiny finish compared to the darker bronze of the original issue. In addition there are two minor varieties of the Re-Issue; the more commonly seen type with a very shiny finish and the less common variety that has a reddish-bronze appearance. While they are seen rarely the shiny Re-Issue can still be obtained.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Rob

Edited by RobW
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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi

Need some opinions on this that I picked up this weekend. Think this is a replica/repro !!!

Obverse

french10.jpg

Reverse

french11.jpg

7 o'clock on edge

french12.jpg

1 o'clock on edge

french13.jpg

The reverse shows signs of the mold having dust or something in it when the casting was made, and where the L.O.Mattei would be, there are faint traces. The medal is approx 35 mm in diameter and weighs 20.5 grams. No ribbon was with the medal.

Any thoughts would be welcome.

Edited by Rayjin
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Hi Rayjin

I think Bill or Robw can better respond to the question, I do not have much knowledge of the model Pautot-Mattei.

Regards

Lambert

Edited by lambert
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Hi

Need some opinions on this that I picked up this weekend. Think this is a replica/repro !!!

The reverse shows signs of the mold having dust or something in it when the casting was made, and where the L.O.Mattei would be, there are faint traces. The medal is approx 35 mm in diameter and weighs 20.5 grams. No ribbon was with the medal.

Any thoughts would be welcome.

Hello Rayjin,

This is indeed a reproduction/replica. Produced in the UK in the early 1990's.

Regards,

Rob

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