American (US) Victory Medals

[Herman]

The book on VM's of Alexander J. Laslo (2nd edition) mentiones in the United States section an official type 3.

This official type 3 is a numbered serie. The edge is stamped with U.S.M. followed by one or two digits. Laslo thinks they are United State Mint presentation pieces. He describes this version on page 92 of his book. This numbering triggered me and over the years I tried to identify the numbers. It is a very slow process. I hope that the readers and contributors to GMIC can unify their information and that the list may grow.

At the moment I identified the following numbers:

U.S.M. 5 awarded to Gen John J. Pershing

U.S.M. 37 awarded to Colonel James P. Barney

U.S.M. 68 (mentioned on page 92 of Laslo's book)

U.S.M. 70 (figure 113 on page 86 of the book)

U.S.M. 95 awarded to Brigadier General R. Krauthoff

Not that impressive yet. So, who knows another one.

I add two pictures. A picture of the U.S.M. 37 of Col Barney and a black and white photo of the set of Brigadier General Krauthoff with his VM marked U.S.M. 95 (not shown in the picture).

Best regards

Herman

Edited May 19, 2011 by Herman

[johnnymac]

Kevin, thanks for your honest reply. I know the Polish VM's are fantasy pieces. I just bought one as a reference and i tried to make my VM display as 'complete' as possible. FortunateIy I did not pay that much.

regards, Herman.

Good morning Herman, and thanks for the postings.

On the Col. Barney (U.S.M 37) victory medal , I have to say how lucky are you to have a numbered one, adding do you know why he might have gotten number medal.

I have a question, is that a stamp of the letter "S" under the letter "M", or is that just light playing tricks on us? The reason I ask is, I do see the "7" has been double hit?

Last, is the suspension of this medal a type 1 with a thicker planchet, or type 2 with the standard thickness..

Thanks, Jim

Edited May 19, 2011 by johnnymac

[Herman]

Hello Johnnymac,

Thanks for your reply. To put one thing straight right away. I do NOT posses the U.S.M. 37 medal of Col. Barney. I picked this picture and another one, which I shall add to this post, a few years back from the internet. I don't know where, maybe ebay.

I don't know why the US Mint gave away these numbered medals. Furthermore Laslo's book is not clear on this subject either.

For your question on the suspension of the VM of Col Barney, see the picture below. It is a type 2 as you can see.

Best regards

Herman

Edited May 19, 2011 by Herman

[lambert]

My latest collection

Victory Medal USA.

With a bar fight "Somme Ofencive'' 8/8-11/11-1918. About 54,000 issued.

Regiments and divisions American 27th, 30th, 33rd, 80th.

Lambert

Edited May 24, 2011 by lambert

[Tim B]

Here's an interesting little Vic with probably the most common three clasp setup. Picked it up the other day from a local that listed it on eBay and I decided to pick it up locally and meet the person. Turns out the medal belonged to her grandfather, who was a balloonist in the Army's 5th Balloon Corps. Has all kinds of maps, documentation, etc for him along with period photos and postwar signatures from Doolittle and others. I need to sit down with her and her husband to see what all they have and try to help them get rid of a lot of it.

Anyway, a very nice little addition with a great surprise!

Enjoy,

Tim

[Bilco]

Hi Gents,

I was Googling for WW1 Vics and came across this document, downloadable from a Russian site http://www.sammler.ru/banner/usa1.doc

It's a 31-page dissertation on the US vic which might be of interest. Of course, being a newbie, I've probably missed it on this Forum!

Bill

[RobW]

Hi Gents,

I was Googling for WW1 Vics and came across this document, downloadable from a Russian site http://www.sammler.ru/banner/usa1.doc

It's a 31-page dissertation on the US vic which might be of interest. Of course, being a newbie, I've probably missed it on this Forum!

Bill

Hello Bill,

The originator of this document has simply turned the US chapter of Mr Laslo's book into electronic Microsoft Word document format. There is no new information contained in this document. It has a document creation date of 20 August 2006 so it is not something that has been produced recently.

It is a handy reference for those that don't have a copy of Mr Laslo's book, copyright implications aside. Having said that there are many differing opinions regarding copyright and orphaned works. Mr Laslo has passed away, and there are no further copies of his second edition book available, except in the second hand market.

Regards,

Rob

Edited June 8, 2011 by RobW

[Bilco]

Hi Rob - many thanks for the ident of the original source. I was beginning to suspect that it was Laslo from the scope of the information. As you say, useful for those who don't have a copy of Laslo - I wonder if there are any more extracts on that site.

Bill

[Tim B]

Found this HLP example while I was browsing information online. It was listed as a 1980's reissue piece but, with the slot-brooch, I'm not so sure here.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but slot-brooch should have been phased out sometime in the 1960's. His Lordship Products (HLP) was one of the main suppliers of military awards then, but I would think if they were issuing this out in the '80's, it would have been on a crimp brooch, no?

Anyway, thought it was interesting to see and decided to post it here. Laslo lists this HLP reissue Type-1 in his reference and you can just see the "beveled lug" suspension. Not 100% here, but does the lug look a bit narrow on this one?

One thing I did find interesting here, is the blue vice purple thread used to mount the brooch. In another thread I recently started on clasp star variations, I had shown examples that had odd arrangements of clasps and this blue thread. Could there be a connection?

Tim

Edited June 24, 2011 by Tim B

[RRA227]

My U.S. medals. Rich A. in Pa.

[Tim B]

Hi Rich,

A nice start! Here's some of my singles and it all comes with time and patience.

Tim

[RRA227]

Tim,Nice pile of medals! Rich A. in Pa.

[Tim B]

I couldn't move the thread I started, so thought I would cut & paste it here and delete the other thread so it stays under the US section. Bear with me...

**Star Question**

I thought a good new topic might be to revisit the old topic of clasp variations we have noted in the past. In the old long-running thread, Rob had asked if anyone knew the origins of the clasps with the larger, more pronounced, looking stars. For the original discussion, see page 22, post 430.

I'll post a PIC from that thread here for convenience sake.

Tim

Edited July 17, 2011 by Tim B
moved into the US section

[Tim B]

I don't know if anyone else has noticed or not, but there is suddenly an increase of these type clasps for sale on eBay. I see them being offered both as unmounted individual items, and more recently, as complete medals made up with a mixture or entirety of these type clasps.

All have these larger, more pointed looking stars instead of the common issue variety.

I am starting to feel that someone out there is making up combination medals, sometimes with rare campaign clasps and impossible combinations, just to fool collectors/potential buyers.

Tim

Here's some recent examples:

Note the Vittorio-Veneto clasp and stars.

[Tim B]

Here's another example. Note all the stars are of this variety and the combination doesn't match up to any known units at a divisional level. I understand there are individuals that qualify for odd arrangements, but I see no occurances where some of these clasps could have been together.

In this case, what could have been a 28th Div. example, the Ypres-Lys clasp doesn't belong and the medal is missing the Defensive Sector clasp altogether.

Tim

[Tim B]

Then, there are these two that recently were listed as "but it now" items and sat for a few days before someone pulled the plug.

Both are wrong IMO, and have a make up of mixed official and these odd clasps styles. Again, the combinations do not readily cross over, though the 5-bar combination could have been a person assigned to the US 3rd Division and he missed out on the St. Mihiel campaign. Still there are other issues with the piece IMO, including the top sewn thread appearing to be more blue than purple.

Here's the 5-clasp:

[Tim B]

Here's the seven bar example. So many questions on this one!

Note the top two clasp are of this odd variety with larger stars and all the others are of the common issue variety. Interesting that the two clasps in question are very rare to see, especially on complete medals. Also, note it's missing the Defensive Sector clasp again and also has that bluish colored thread sewn to the top of the brooch instead of the official purple you should be seeing.

Now, as far as combinations go, unless this guy did a lot of transferring between commands, I don't see how this set-up can be legit? Was it common for soldiers back then to transfer between commands like this?

Tim

[Tim B]

Here's just an edited side by side comparison of the two.

I don't know, but I think collectors need to be watchful for these items. I personally would not want these in my collection, at least not as original issue items.

Tim

[Tim B]

That's done. Now, onto a different topic.

I picked up a nice US Vic sometime back with the Russia service clasp and wanted some opinions on it.

Here's the standard obverse/reverse and everything looks correct to me for a standard official type 2 issue, including Frazier's name.

Tim

[Tim B]

The clasp. As far as I can tell, the lettering matches known original patterns.

[Tim B]

But, has anyone ever seen a knob that was split/cut like this? I thought I remembered reading or discussing one of these sometime in the past but, I can't find anything in my searches today.

Some observations:

- The medal planchet appears struck and not cast. The details are sharp. The medal may have been cleaned but I can't say for sure.

- Measuring the planchet with a dial caliper, the diameter is 36.1 MM and the thickness at the 3 & 9 o'clock positions show 2.5 MM each.

- The suspension ring is split and not soldered. The ring split is cut straight across (perpendicular to the ring) and not angle cut.

- The ribbon, brooch, and clasp appear original.

Though I can't show it in a PIC, looping it, the inside does not show signs of cutting like a saw would leave. I wonder if the knob just split over time or due to some type of stress but, I can not figure why it would.

Thoughts?

Tim

[johnnymac]

I do not believe the knob just split over time, due to some type of stress and here is why.

I noted in your photo that there is a hair line mark on the ring, that is straight and is the same length as the cut in the suspension. If it were to be moved a little to the left and downward it would line up with your cut.

This cut mark on the ring is between the red lines in the black & white photo, and is very plain to see in your color photo. This would tell me that something sharp had made that cut in the knob .

Jim M.

Edited July 17, 2011 by johnnymac

[Tim B]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for commenting and breaking the ice on this one.

The line you see is really no more than a surface scratch in the finish on the ring. It doesn't go deep at all and appears more of a rub type mark.

With that said, that line does not go very far around and if lined up with the knob, would extend slightly past both ends of it. I can see where it could line up if the ribbon was folded back and the ring rotated to orient it to the knob. Or, it could be nothing more than a surface rub where the ring was in contact with the knob and this line formed over time.

I don't know but, I do agree that I don't see how one of these knobs would stress to the point of breaking as we don't see this on other examples that I am aware of, and if a natural break occured, it wouldn't be so straight IMO. I can't fathom why someone would deliberately cut into the knob, especially as the ring is not soldered?

Do you see any other signs of something wrong with this medal? What do you think about the thickness of the planchet being only 2.5 MM? Shouldn't it be 3 MM?

Thanks again!

Tim

Edited July 17, 2011 by Tim B

[johnnymac]

Do you see any other signs of something wrong with this medal? What do you think about the thickness of the planchet being only 2.5 MM? Shouldn't it be 3 MM?

Tim , are not the type-1, 3mm?

to me this one looks like a type-2!

Jim

Edited July 18, 2011 by johnnymac

[Tim B]

Hi Jim,

No, you're correct this is a Type 2. I was thinking they were all 3 MM in thickness and in fact only the Type 1 were measured this thick at the 3 o'clock position according to Laslo. So, I guess the only issue is why the knob got cut at some point.

Asked the seller and he claims he didn't even notice it, and I guess without lifting the ribbon, you might not. So..?

Thanks again Jim!

Tim