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And last, what appears to be a letter from a local recruiting station letting the member know that they are there to help ex-servicemen get their medals. Perhaps a local distribution point, though I have seen cases where these were mailed directly to the serviceman's address.

Tim

post-548-015714300 1286848445_thumb.jpg

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To all,

I am looking for some specific reference material for use in my continuing research relating to the vic series. The titles I'm looking for are:

* World War I Campaign and Service Credits, Albert F. Gleim, Planchet Press Pub No. 21,

* State, County, City and Organization Medals for World War One, Richard L. Planck, Third Revised Edition. Planchet Press Pub 48B

While not a Planchet publication I am also looking for a copy of the US Navy Department General Order of 1920 establishing ship entitlement to the Navy bars of the US vic. I have a copy of the subsequently amended 1953 list but am specifically looking for the 1920 version.

I would be happy to find the original pubs or even copies. If anyone can help it would be appreciated.

Regards,

Rob

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I know this is not what you are looking for but if you do not already have this list you may find it interesting.

http://www.history.navy.mil/medals/victory/victorya.htm

JohnnyMac

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I know this is not what you are looking for but if you do not already have this list you may find it interesting.

http://www.history.n...ry/victorya.htm

JohnnyMac

Yes, had that as well; good info. The only reference I knew of on the state issued pieces was this; not sure how complete it is and think its only a listing type reference:

Tim

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I know this is not what you are looking for but if you do not already have this list you may find it interesting.

http://www.history.n...ry/victorya.htm

JohnnyMac

Hello JM,

Thanks for the link which I already had. It is a compilation of the navy bars and ship entitlements based on the 1948 and 1953 US Navy Awards manual. The list I am looking for was that contained in the original 1920s Navy Dept GO.

There are difference in ship qualifications between these lists hence I'm looking for the 1920 list.

Regards,

Rob

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To all,

While not a Planchet publication I am also looking for a copy of the US Navy Department General Order of 1920 establishing ship entitlement to the Navy bars of the US vic. I have a copy of the subsequently amended 1953 list but am specifically looking for the 1920 version.

I would be happy to find the original pubs or even copies. If anyone can help it would be appreciated.

Regards,

Rob

To all,

I have managed to find an extract from Navy General Order 528 of 25 April 1920 that has the list of ships eligible for Navy clasps. It is contained as an appendix in the fine publication on US medals 'The Call Of Duty' by Strandberg and Bender.

I am, however still looking for a copy of: World War I Campaign and Service Credits, Albert F. Gleim, Planchet Press Pub No. 21

Regards,

Rob

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To all,

I picked up this nice US vic about 6 months ago but hadn't paid a lot of attention to it due to other competing activities. While the item is a nice clean piece it has a number of interesting points:

* The AISNE-MARNE clasp has no spacers. This is one of the varieties that were produced with no spacers.

* The DEFENSIVE SECTOR clasp is of an unofficial variety produced by the Bailey, Banks and Biddle firm.

* The unusual split suspender is of interest.

* The top four battle clasps all have a different finish and patina.

Looking at the edge I noted some markings and upon closer inspection I noted the medal had been named stamped along the left edge (as viewed). The engraving appears to be hand stamped block letters that are of the width of the medal (circa 2.5mm wide).

The medal is so named: WM. F. PATTEN M.D. MAJOR M.C.

I am aware that named US vics are more predominantly seen on US navy specimens and I haven't seen many US army vics named. While the markings in this case are sufficiently vague do any of our US members of the forum and this thread in particular have any thoughts or clues as to the identity of origin of such an individual?

Happy for all thoughts.

Regards,

Rob

post-7101-011080300 1293366722_thumb.jpg

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To all,

I picked up this nice US vic about 6 months ago but hadn't paid a lot of attention to it due to other competing activities. While the item is a nice clean piece it has a number of interesting points:

* The AISNE-MARNE clasp has no spacers. This is one of the varieties that were produced with no spacers.

* The DEFENSIVE SECTOR clasp is of an unofficial variety produced by the Bailey, Banks and Biddle firm.

* The unusual split suspender is of interest.

* The top four battle clasps all have a different finish and patina.

Looking at the edge I noted some markings and upon closer inspection I noted the medal had been named stamped along the left edge (as viewed). The engraving appears to be hand stamped block letters that are of the width of the medal (circa 2.5mm wide).

The medal is so named: WM. F. PATTEN M.D. MAJOR M.C.

I am aware that named US vics are more predominantly seen on US navy specimens and I haven't seen many US army vics named. While the markings in this case are sufficiently vague do any of our US members of the forum and this thread in particular have any thoughts or clues as to the identity of origin of such an individual?

Happy for all thoughts.

Regards,

Rob

Hi Rob,

There are so many interesting things about this medal. I hope to give you my interpretation of yourmedal. Having said that, this is the type of medal that I enjoy finding myself.

You have mention again, as you have in the past, that you believe that the "DEFENSIVE SECTOR" type clasp, that is attached tothis medal, was a product of Bailey, Banks & Biddle Co. Having 23 loose clasps of this type myself,has enabled me to examine the back straps of each one. To date, I have not found one with the BB&B stamp on them. In talking to BB&B collectors and asking them if this type clasp was too small to warrant a stamp, the answer has always been "no". They have shown me items much smaller with the BB&B stamp. Again having said that, I believe as well, there still might be a BB&B connection to this clasp or maybe another type clasp I own. Since you feel so strongly that this type clasp is a BB&B, have you found the missing link like a catalog or a good photo document that can be shared and would shed some light on this subject?

The brooch on this medal is very close to the French-made repro victory medals, so could there be a connection? See my attached posting#1.

post-8368-006314100 1293386426_thumb.jpg

post-8368-017917200 1293386865_thumb.jpg

As for the missing spacer I have several that are that wayand they are an original issue. Afterfurther examination of your clasp, I have questions. Here's why:

1. On the AISNE-MARNE clasp, note that the halfmoons seem to be deeper. The clasp has more of a brass color, not like the riverside bronze of the ones above or below.

2. Looking at the letters in the AISNE-MARNE clasp, I see by your photo, the style is slightly different than the normal original issue clasps. Note that the lower bottom of the letters on this clasp seem to be missing the pyramid shape on each of these letters"A-I-N M-A-R-N" compared to the above clasp.

3. On the reverse side, the back strap for the same clasp AISNE-MARNE is much smaller inlength. It matches the same length asthe bottom one, which is the Defensive Sector clasp. Additionally, the reverse side of the half moons, match the ones on the Defensive Sector clasp. The other three clasps match each other.

As we both know the combination of clasps would make this a 42nd Division medal, or one of another other units (or a person possibly in the MTC) which were also awarded this combination.

As for WM. F. PATTEN M.D. MAJOR M.C., I am not sure, but wouldn't the correct protocol in the military be: MAJOR WM.F. PATTEN M.D. U.S.M.C.? It appears to me that the title would precede the name. For example, WM. F. PATTEN LORD RN would be LORD WM. F. PATTEN, RN. Most items use the abbreviation of U.S.M.C. because M.C. is too informal it would be like saying Navy when in fact its RoyalNavy.

I mentions this because you stated that the engraving appearsto hand stamped - Could you post a photo of the staming.

There are to two ways of looking at situation in my mind. Someone may have wanted to embellish this medal or William took thismedal to someone and had the work done himself!

Hope that my observations, bring a new way of looking atthis medal.

Regards, Jim

Edited by johnnymac

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Hi Rob,

There are so many interesting things about this medal. I hope to give you my interpretation of yourmedal. Having said that, this is the type of medal that I enjoy finding myself.

You have mention again, as you have in the past, that you believe that the "DEFENSIVE SECTOR" type clasp, that is attached tothis medal, was a product of Bailey, Banks & Biddle Co. Having 23 loose clasps of this type myself,has enabled me to examine the back straps of each one. To date, I have not found one with the BB&B stamp on them. In talking to BB&B collectors and asking them if this type clasp was too small to warrant a stamp, the answer has always been "no". They have shown me items much smaller with the BB&B stamp. Again having said that, I believe as well, there still might be a BB&B connection to this clasp or maybe another type clasp I own. Since you feel so strongly that this type clasp is a BB&B, have you found the missing link like a catalog or a good photo document that can be shared and would shed some light on this subject?

The brooch on this medal is very close to the French-made repro victory medals, so could there be a connection? See my attached posting#1.

post-8368-006314100 1293386426_thumb.jpg

post-8368-017917200 1293386865_thumb.jpg

As for the missing spacer I have several that are that wayand they are an original issue. Afterfurther examination of your clasp, I have questions. Here's why:

1. On the AISNE-MARNE clasp, note that the halfmoons seem to be deeper. The clasp has more of a brass color, not like the riverside bronze of the ones above or below.

2. Looking at the letters in the AISNE-MARNE clasp, I see by your photo, the style is slightly different than the normal original issue clasps. Note that the lower bottom of the letters on this clasp seem to be missing the pyramid shape on each of these letters"A-I-N M-A-R-N" compared to the above clasp.

3. On the reverse side, the back strap for the same clasp AISNE-MARNE is much smaller inlength. It matches the same length asthe bottom one, which is the Defensive Sector clasp. Additionally, the reverse side of the half moons, match the ones on the Defensive Sector clasp. The other three clasps match each other.

As we both know the combination of clasps would make this a 42nd Division medal, or one of another other units (or a person possibly in the MTC) which were also awarded this combination.

As for WM. F. PATTEN M.D. MAJOR M.C., I am not sure, but wouldn't the correct protocol in the military be: MAJOR WM.F. PATTEN M.D. U.S.M.C.? It appears to me that the title would precede the name. For example, WM. F. PATTEN LORD RN would be LORD WM. F. PATTEN, RN. Most items use the abbreviation of U.S.M.C. because M.C. is too informal it would be like saying Navy when in fact its RoyalNavy.

I mentions this because you stated that the engraving appearsto hand stamped - Could you post a photo of the staming.

There are to two ways of looking at situation in my mind. Someone may have wanted to embellish this medal or William took thismedal to someone and had the work done himself!

Hope that my observations, bring a new way of looking atthis medal.

Regards, Jim

Hey Rob,

I just woke up, forget this part of my posting (Most items use the abbreviation of U.S.M.C. because M.C. is too informal it would be like sayingNavy when in fact its Royal Navy). I am sure, M.C. is for Medical Corps and not Marine Corps.

Could you post a photo of the stamping on this medal.

Jim

Edited by johnnymac

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Just some information what I saw...

Poset up by Tom Nier on the US Militaria Forum;

A page from George Studley's June 1943 Medal & Insignia catalog was shown in another thread. It gave Studley's Congressional authorization dated 4-21-1928 to sell "articles of military insignia". He could sell miniature federal US medals at will. but technically couldn't "issue" the full size medals.

While re-reading this interesting 3.5 x 6.0 inch catalog, Studley's list of WW1 Victory Medal clasps caught my eye. This page is reprinted below. Can you locate four very unofficial clasps in this line-up?? Plus one more clasp which is official but mis-spelled?? Many collectors have wondered where these bogus clasps originated. Here is one very probable explanation.

17344715477b5f_o.jpg

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Is it possible that the MC after Major Patten's name is a post-nominal for the British MC. During World War I the British Army had a shortage of medical officers and quite a few US Army medical officers were attached to the British Army and a number of them were awarded the Military Cross. Gunner 1

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Is it possible that the MC after Major Patten's name is a post-nominal for the British MC. During World War I the British Army had a shortage of medical officers and quite a few US Army medical officers were attached to the British Army and a number of them were awarded the Military Cross. Gunner 1

Hello Gunner 1,

I had also considered when viewing the naming for the first time that M.D. may have implied medical doctor but wasn't too sure. If this was to be the case it would certainly make it even more interesting.

Regards,

Rob

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Hello Jim,

Thanks for the detailed reply.

I would clarify different areas separately.

You have mention again, as you have in the past, that you believe that the "DEFENSIVE SECTOR" type clasp, that is attached tothis medal, was a product of Bailey, Banks & Biddle Co. Having 23 loose clasps of this type myself,has enabled me to examine the back straps of each one. To date, I have not found one with the BB&B stamp on them. In talking to BB&B collectors and asking them if this type clasp was too small to warrant a stamp, the answer has always been "no". They have shown me items much smaller with the BB&B stamp. Again having said that, I believe as well, there still might be a BB&B connection to this clasp or maybe another type clasp I own. Since you feel so strongly that this type clasp is a BB&B, have you found the missing link like a catalog or a good photo document that can be shared and would shed some light on this subject?

* BBB clasp. Discussions I have had with other US collectors have indicated that some BBB items were also not marked on the reverse.

In Alexander Laslo's Vic book, 2nd Edition, he specifically mentions a BB&B clasp of the same design as the DEFENSIVE SECTOR clasp shown. There is illustrated an 'Army Of Occupation' clasp on page 119, that is the same and in the text below it indicates that said Army Of Occupation clasp was manufactured by BB&B, and appeared in George Studleys catalogue of 1939. Timo's post above helpfully shows a later catalogue of the same list.

I would assume that Alexander Laslo had some good and conclusive information to suggest such a link between the clasp design and the firm of BB&B. If other US collectors have information to suggest otherwise it would be helpful to share it here as well.

I have attached a picture of a clasp, 'Army Of Occupation' that is the same as that illustrated in Alexander Laslo's book.

You mention that you have spoken to other BB&B collectors. It would be good to receive their input as, apart from yourself and Tim B, there are not that many other regular US posters on this particular thread. The more the merrier and it may help us all out.

The brooch on this medal is very close to the French-made repro victory medals, so could there be a connection? See my attached posting#1.

* Split brooch. It has been indicated to me that the Split Brooch is of US production that was used on period manufacture pre-world war 2 US medals. The earlier version being the split wrap brooch with stocks of the other variety, being the Full Wrap brooch, running out sometime in the early 1940s. Is this correct??

Regards,

Rob

post-7101-012820300 1293432466_thumb.jpg

Edited by RobW

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Hey Rob,

Could you post a photo of the stamping on this medal.

Jim

Jim,

Poor photography skills aside, I shall attempt to photograph the rim of the medal when I have the opportunity.

Regards,

Rob

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Hello JM,

This is as good as the scans are going to get. At the narrowest point of the rim, near the M.D. the period marks slightly overlap the edge.

Regards,

Rob

post-7101-064309100 1293437863_thumb.jpg

Edited by RobW

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Just some information what I saw...

Poset up by Tom Nier on the US Militaria Forum;

Hello Timo,

Thanks for the pic of the catalogue. It is good reference.

I have a picture of the CANTIGNEY clasp somewhere. If I can track it down I shall post it for reference.

Regards,

Rob

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Just some information what I saw...

Poset up by Tom Nier on the US Militaria Forum;

17344715477b5f_o.jpg

Yes, thanks for the posting, Tim

I have not seen this before. Tim I count 5, unofficial clasps not 4, Chateau-Thierry,Cantignety, Soission, Verdun and Serbia. Cambria is spelled wrong maybe it is a type-o as we know that it is (Cambrai),but a lot of folks might think it was Sub Chaser. Note too, that the White Sea clasp is missing in his listing, plus it is missing below with the Asiatic clasp. Studley's, I had held he started his businessin the old 20's to early 30's, and Inot sure, but I think he passed on in the 60' or 70's.

Thanks Jim

Edited by johnnymac

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Hello Jim,

Thanks for the detailed reply.

I would clarify different areas separately.

* BBB clasp. Discussions I have had with other US collectors have indicated that some BBB items were also not marked on the reverse.

In Alexander Laslo's Vic book, 2nd Edition, he specifically mentions a BB&B clasp of the same design as the DEFENSIVE SECTOR clasp shown. There is illustrated an 'Army Of Occupation' clasp on page 119, that is the same and in the text below it indicates that said Army Of Occupation clasp was manufactured by BB&B, and appeared in George Studleys catalogue of 1939. Timo's post above helpfully shows a later catalogue of the same list.

I would assume that Alexander Laslo had some good and conclusive information to suggest such a link between the clasp design and the firm of BB&B. If other US collectors have information to suggest otherwise it would be helpful to share it here as well.

I have attached a picture of a clasp, 'Army Of Occupation' that is the same as that illustrated in Alexander Laslo's book.

You mention that you have spoken to other BB&B collectors. It would be good to receive their input as, apart from yourself and Tim B, there are not that many other regular US posters on this particular thread. The more the merrier and it may help us all out.

* Split brooch. It has been indicated to me that the Split Brooch is of US production that was used on period manufacture pre-world war 2 US medals. The earlier version being the split wrap brooch with stocks of the other variety, being the Full Wrap brooch, running out sometime in the early 1940s. Is this correct??

Regards,

Rob

Rob,

Within a 150 mile radius of me, there are at least 12military collector shows a year. They house between 200 to 800 tables. I attend only the two largest because mostitems are a repeat. Most of the dealersknow my interest, so I find two shows a decent number. The BB&B pilot wing & badgecollectors are there.

You referenced in Laslo's bookThe "Army of Occupation" being a BB&B and sold by Stubley in hiscatalog. In Tim's illustration of Stubley's catalog, there is no mention of BB&B and no photos to show how each clasp looked. Stubley does list an"Army of Occupation" and a "Defensive Sector" clasp, but he also lists a "Serbia" clasp. His "Serbia clasp" is the only one of "all" the different types of unofficial clasps of which I know.

See my illustration of George Stubley's clasps

post-8368-044641500 1293487413_thumb.jpg

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Hello Jim,

Thanks for the detailed reply.

I would clarify different areas separately.

* BBB clasp. Discussions I have had with other US collectors have indicated that some BBB items were also not marked on the reverse.

In Alexander Laslo's Vic book, 2nd Edition, he specifically mentions a BB&B clasp of the same design as the DEFENSIVE SECTOR clasp shown. There is illustrated an 'Army Of Occupation' clasp on page 119, that is the same and in the text below it indicates that said Army Of Occupation clasp was manufactured by BB&B, and appeared in George Studleys catalogue of 1939. Timo's post above helpfully shows a later catalogue of the same list.

I would assume that Alexander Laslo had some good and conclusive information to suggest such a link between the clasp design and the firm of BB&B. If other US collectors have information to suggest otherwise it would be helpful to share it here as well.

I have attached a picture of a clasp, 'Army Of Occupation' that is the same as that illustrated in Alexander Laslo's book.

You mention that you have spoken to other BB&B collectors. It would be good to receive their input as, apart from yourself and Tim B, there are not that many other regular US posters on this particular thread. The more the merrier and it may help us all out.

* Split brooch. It has been indicated to me that the Split Brooch is of US production that was used on period manufacture pre-world war 2 US medals. The earlier version being the split wrap brooch with stocks of the other variety, being the Full Wrap brooch, running out sometime in the early 1940s. Is this correct??

Regards,

Rob

Also note that Stubley's "Army of Occupation" and"Defensive Sector" clasps in my illustration are identical to his "Serbia" clasp. It is not anything like the one in Laslo's illustration on page 119 of Laslo's book.

See my illustration of what I think are Art Medal Works Inc. clasps.

post-8368-068354100 1293488371_thumb.jpg

The letter style of the two clasps, that you believe to be BB&B, are identical to the letter style used by "Art Medal Works Inc." for their Navy clasps.

Please read in A. Laslo's book on page 93, paragraph 1 & 2. Alexander Laslo states that the Jos. Mayer's had a illustrated catalog 1933, but he does not mention that there was an "illustrated" catalog in the case of Geo. Stubley.

Regards, Jim

Edited by johnnymac

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Hello Jim,

Thanks for the detailed reply.

I would clarify different areas separately.

* BBB clasp. Discussions I have had with other US collectors have indicated that some BBB items were also not marked on the reverse.

In Alexander Laslo's Vic book, 2nd Edition, he specifically mentions a BB&B clasp of the same design as the DEFENSIVE SECTOR clasp shown. There is illustrated an 'Army Of Occupation' clasp on page 119, that is the same and in the text below it indicates that said Army Of Occupation clasp was manufactured by BB&B, and appeared in George Studleys catalogue of 1939. Timo's post above helpfully shows a later catalogue of the same list.

I would assume that Alexander Laslo had some good and conclusive information to suggest such a link between the clasp design and the firm of BB&B. If other US collectors have information to suggest otherwise it would be helpful to share it here as well.

I have attached a picture of a clasp, 'Army Of Occupation' that is the same as that illustrated in Alexander Laslo's book.

You mention that you have spoken to other BB&B collectors. It would be good to receive their input as, apart from yourself and Tim B, there are not that many other regular US posters on this particular thread. The more the merrier and it may help us all out.

* Split brooch. It has been indicated to me that the Split Brooch is of US production that was used on period manufacture pre-world war 2 US medals. The earlier version being the split wrap brooch with stocks of the other variety, being the Full Wrap brooch, running out sometime in the early 1940s. Is this correct??

Regards,

Rob

post-8368-069017200 1293488845_thumb.jpg

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Rob,

Stubley does list an"Army of Occupation" and a "Defensive Sector" clasp, but he also lists a "Serbia" clasp. His "Serbia clasp" is the only one of "all" the different types of unofficial clasps of which I know.

See my illustration of George Stubley's clasps

Hello Jim,

Are there any markings on the reverse of the Serbia clasp or is it plain?

Regards,

Rob

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Also note that Stubley's "Army of Occupation" and"Defensive Sector" clasps in my illustration are identical to his "Serbia" clasp. It is not anything like the one in Laslo's illustration on page 119 of Laslo's book.

See my illustration of what I think are Art Medal Works Inc. clasps.

The letter style of the two clasps, that you believe to be BB&B, are identical to the letter style used by "Art Medal Works Inc." for their Navy clasps.

Please read in A. Laslo's book on page 93, paragraph 1 & 2. Alexander Laslo states that the Jos. Mayer's had a illustrated catalog 1933, but he does not mention that there was an "illustrated" catalog in the case of Geo. Stubley.

Regards, Jim

Jim,

All good points regarding these clasps, letter styles and catalogue listings. What would help is if anyone has a copy of these old catalogues to post some pics.

The journey on attempting to identify all these clasp varieties continues.

Regards,

Rob

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Jim,

All good points regarding these clasps, letter styles and catalogue listings. What would help is if anyone has a copy of these old catalogues to post some pics.

The journey on attempting to identify all these clasp varieties continues.

Regards,

Rob

Rob,

I do agree with all that you said.

Regards Jim

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Hello Jim,

Are there any markings on the reverse of the Serbia clasp or is it plain?

Regards,

Rob

Rob,

As far as my Serbia be marked, the answer is no. It is identical to several others of this type, some marked France on back strap and others without any mark. I have two that have the same obverse, but only one of them is marked "FRANCE". When I can get to them I will post.

This is a new purchase and is a different type clasp then Serbia grouping, but it to comes with and without marking. Two of the three back straps are marked made in France and note the height of the back strap of the unmarked one.

Regards, Jim

post-8368-024336300 1293537258_thumb.jpg

Edited by johnnymac

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