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Hello JimZ,

Glad that you like where the thread has gone. It is much like pulling a thread; you never really know where it will lead to. With the vic series there is always something new to learn.

Regards,

Rob

To All,

We know that BB&B tried to get the Navy clasp contractbut failed. They lost out to Fulford Manufacturing Company and at a later date to the Art Medal Works. However, BB&B did make Navy clasps. We know this because there are clasps with their BB&B logo on them. These may be the ones used for the bidding contract with the Navy. And the amount of clasps made for the bidding, I believe may be very small.

We also know that Art Medal Works, S.G. Adams and Jos.Mayer's won the Army's contract. So I ask you, did BB&B even make a Army type clasp? I ask this question because you would think that at least one Army clasp in the past 90 years would have turned up with their logo onit. BB&B's military section was just a small part of their business. Might not have BB&B used someone else's unofficial Army clasp as needed? We know this practice of outsourcing was wide spread in Europe on their medals, because there so many unofficial types.

To support this statement I offer these thoughts. The U.S. Government was sending out millionsof medals from three different manufacturers for free during hard times. BB&B was an elite business with a limited market. In the 1920's, they had little to no capability of reaching the mass of veterans on a large scale to justify stock piling millions of different battle and service clasps. I believe having a small customer base, it would have made good business sense to outsource for clasps.

Returning to the subject of the "Army of Occupation" clasp, Mr. Laslo wrote, on page 119, "Manufactured byBailey Banks & Biddle. Appears in George W. Stubley's 1939 catalog for $.25 each". That tells me, that Mr. Laslo did not personally have knowledge of the clasp being a BB&B, rather he was relying on a catalog for his documentation on this clasp.

Until an Army clasp with the same known markings "BB&B Bronze" which is on the Navy clasp shows up, for me the case is closed. I have seen many other type military collector books that were labeled as the bible in their field, only to find at a later date, a newer one at some military collector show.

Thank you for your patience, Jim

P.S.When I moved to another state to a smaller home, many of my collectible things had to go. One of these unknown to me at the time, was my copy of Gleim Medal Letters 1971-1997, 2nd ED. I am looking for another copy in any condition. If anyone can help, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Edited by johnnymac

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Hello Timo,

Thanks for the pic of the catalogue. It is good reference.

I have a picture of the CANTIGNEY clasp somewhere. If I can track it down I shall post it for reference.

Regards,

Rob

Hello Timo,

And here is the picture. The clasp does not have any spacers.

Regards,

Rob

post-7101-092711400 1293678838_thumb.jpg

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Hello Timo,

And here is the picture. The clasp does not have any spacers.

Regards,

Rob

Changing Subject violent.gif

Overlooked little Giants, as most collectors go for the 5 to more clasps medals.

1. 301st Tank Corps, (1st U.S. Tank battle). - Also, only personnel actually engaged in the battle of the Somme, Offensive. Other possible reasons: This was their first and their only battle, wounded to degree that they could not returned to full duty or were POW's returned after war.

2. 11th, 12 or 14th Engineers, (1st battle where U.S. troops fought). - Also only personnel actually engaged in the battle of Cambrai. Other possible reasons: This was their first and their only battle, wounded to degree that they could not returned to full duty or were POW's returned after war war.

3. Naval Railway Battery No 1 and 370th Infantry (93rd Div.). - Also only personnel actually engaged in the battle of Oise-Asine. Other possible reasons: This was their first and their only battle, wounded to degree that they could not returned to full duty. (The Naval Railway Batteries Gun No.1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 "Gun crews" they were authorized and awarded Army type clasps, along with the Sailor's and Marines with the 2ndDivision, See their history and Alexanders Lasol's book).

4. 332nd Infantry, 331st Field Hospital, 30 American ambulance sections, Supply and Ammo Trains, Machine Gun and Trench Mortar battalions and 54 U.S Air Service pilots plus their crews (who did bombing raids during the battle of Vittoro Veneto). - In their book they mention 4000 enlisted men washed themselves in what they called the ditch and under 200 officers used a river less than one mile away. So maybe that number 1,200 victory medals with the clasp Vittoro-Veneto is low.

5. 2nd PursuitGroup, Air Service, 1st Army, 22 Squadron.

These combination are unique and were awarded only to these units. That is not say that some individuals did not receive the same combination.

Jim

post-8368-045917600 1294061794_thumb.jpg

Edited by johnnymac

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Here is one more US Victory Medal clasp:

174351990d168a_l.jpg

Why is the one on the bottom blank? :unsure:

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Why is the one on the bottom blank? :unsure:

I added two scans together - it's just a back on the same "Russia" clasp:cheers:

Edited by Noor

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To all,

I am currently conducting some research into the US 93rd Infantry Division and in particular the 369th Infantry Regiment and its participation in the Aisne-Marne offensive.

While the 93rd Division did not serve as a complete division during the Great War, the individual Infantry Regiments serving with the French Army were, according to the 'Battle Participation of Organisations of the AEF' 1920 publication awarded campaign streamers.

According to this reference the 369th was, in Part I - Battle Participation listed as participating in:

* Champagne Sector, France, 8 April-4 July, 1918; 21 July-19 August, 1918; 26 August-2 September, 1918.

* Champagne-Marne defensive, France, 15 July-18 July, 1918.

* Aisne-Marne offensive, France, 18 July-20 July, 1918.

* Meuse-Argonne offensive (Champagne), France, 26 September-30 September, 1918.

* Thur sector, Vosges, France, 16 October-11 November 1918.

Participation in the Aisne-Marne offensive is also indicated in Part II - Organisations Participating In Each Major Operation And Sector:

* Aisne-Marne Offensive, France, 18 July-6 August, 1918

- 369th Infantry, 18 July-20 July 1918.

Most references subsequently indicate the regiment would have thus qualified for the following campaign streamers:

1. Champagne–Marne

2. Meuse–Argonne

3. Champagne 1918

4. Alsace 1918

This would have translated to the following US vic clasps:

* Champagne-Marne, Meuse-Argonne, and Defensive Sector.

My query about the 369th Infantry Regiment is, if they were attributed and confirmed as participating in the Aisne-Marne offensive why were they not also entitled to the 'Aisne-Marne' clasp to the US vic?

Happy to hear many and all thoughts on this.

Regards,

Rob

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4. 332nd Infantry, 331st Field Hospital, 30 American ambulance sections, Supply and Ammo Trains, Machine Gun and Trench Mortar battalions and 54 U.S Air Service pilots plus their crews (who did bombing raids during the battle of Vittoro Veneto). - In their book they mention 4000 enlisted men washed themselves in what they called the ditch and under 200 officers used a river less than one mile away. So maybe that number 1,200 victory medals with the clasp Vittoro-Veneto is low.

These combination are unique and were awarded only to these units. That is not say that some individuals did not receive the same combination.

Jim

Hello Jim,

To which book are you refering?

Regards,

Rob

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Hello Jim,

To which book are you refering?

Regards,

Rob

see below - Jim

I put everything on one post

Edited by johnnymac

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Hello Jim,

To which book are you refering?

Regards,

Rob

I think this might be faster then looking for a book(s)

post-8368-019224500 1294669996_thumb.jpg

From the book "In Italy with the 332nd Inf."

1. HQ, 331st Field Hospital and machine Gun Co.

2. Trench Mortars, Supply officer

3. "Our"Machine Gun men

4. 4000 men washing in ditch, 200 officers washing in river

5. "Our" Machine Gun, One pounders (small artillery)and Trench Mortars.

To support the Machine Gun Companies., Mortars, Artillery and Infantry you need "Ammo trains for each" that is why we get back to what they wrote in their book "4000 men washing in a ditch"

(not shown in these grouping, but a "Company Band" is also mentioned".

From the Book "Doughboys in Italy

6. Medical and supply units, 30 American ambulance sections, a Base hospital and 54 American pilots (+ crew) on a bombing raid Vittorio Veneto

.

Wiki - American bomber pilots Vittorio Veneto

The old break down for the Army was: A company had 100 men and 12 companies to regiment or 1,200 men that was not counting support units (we can not believe no one else was at the battle). The 332nd Infantry needed, food, ammo, everyday supplies, HQ, MP's, medical aid and supplies, field phones and list goes on. It would be hard to believe they got off the ship and said "we are here". Just think, possible 99.9% or more did not speak Italian, we know this as they did not seek only men that spoke Italian.

Jim

Edited by johnnymac

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To all,

I am currently conducting some research into the US 93rd Infantry Division and in particular the 369th Infantry Regiment and its participation in the Aisne-Marne offensive.

While the 93rd Division did not serve as a complete division during the Great War, the individual Infantry Regiments serving with the French Army were, according to the 'Battle Participation of Organisations of the AEF' 1920 publication awarded campaign streamers.

According to this reference the 369th was, in Part I - Battle Participation listed as participating in:

* Champagne Sector, France, 8 April-4 July, 1918; 21 July-19 August, 1918; 26 August-2 September, 1918.

* Champagne-Marne defensive, France, 15 July-18 July, 1918.

* Aisne-Marne offensive, France, 18 July-20 July, 1918.

* Meuse-Argonne offensive (Champagne), France, 26 September-30 September, 1918.

* Thur sector, Vosges, France, 16 October-11 November 1918.

Participation in the Aisne-Marne offensive is also indicated in Part II - Organisations Participating In Each Major Operation And Sector:

* Aisne-Marne Offensive, France, 18 July-6 August, 1918

- 369th Infantry, 18 July-20 July 1918.

Most references subsequently indicate the regiment would have thus qualified for the following campaign streamers:

1. Champagne–Marne

2. Meuse–Argonne

3. Champagne 1918

4. Alsace 1918

This would have translated to the following US vic clasps:

* Champagne-Marne, Meuse-Argonne, and Defensive Sector.

My query about the 369th Infantry Regiment is, if they were attributed and confirmed as participating in the Aisne-Marne offensive why were they not also entitled to the 'Aisne-Marne' clasp to the US vic?

Happy to hear many and all thoughts on this.

Regards,

Rob

Its a type-o, and I am sure you have seen this before.

As for 369th Inf. serving with the French Army? Half the U.S. Army served with and under French and English commands and that's not to mention also the Italian's command with the 332nd Inf at Vittiorio Veneto

Was not the U.S. Grand Fleet under UK commander, and U.S. 27th & 30th Divisions under UK command almost to the end of the war!

Jim

Edited by johnnymac

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Hi all,

Here is my USA Victory Medal with the "Russia" army service clasp

Like I understand men from 85th ("Custer") Infantry Division 339th Infantry Regiment and 85th Infantry Division 1st Battalion of the 310th Engineers Regiment (?) was entitled for that?

Also are following figures correct regarding service clasps?

(source http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t1367.html)

Siberia - approximately 9,000 entitled (but fewer produced then the Russia clasp)

Russia - approximately 9,000 entitled

Italy - approximately 4,800 entitled (but more produced so its relative rarity is lower)

England - approximately 31,100 entitled

France - approximately 621,600 entitled

174612413266eb_o.jpg

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I think this might be faster then looking for a book(s)

Jim

Hello Jim,

Thanks for the posts. Much appreciated. I do have both books that you mention but they are still in the mail to me and will not arrive for a short while.

Anecdotally the information in these books would suggest that more than the previously indicated 1,200 personnel were involved in the battle of Vittorio-Veneto. That would suggest that at least all those supporting troops, including the aviators would also be qualified. If this is the case then previous estimate of 4,800 personnel being entitled to the Italy service clasp would have to be revised downward as well.

Interesting times.

Regards,

Rob

Edited by RobW

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Hi all,

Here is my USA Victory Medal with the "Russia" army service clasp

Also are following figures correct regarding service clasps?

Siberia - approximately 9,000 entitled (but fewer produced then the Russia clasp)

Russia - approximately 9,000 entitled

Hello Timo,

A good example. There seems to be a bit of a disconnect between the numbers of clasps produced compared to the numbers actually issued. While these estimates are based on 1920s projections further research may be able to narrow the figures. There is always something to look at as more information becomes available.

Regards,

Rob

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Hello Jim,

Thanks for the posts. Much appreciated. I do have both books that you mention but they are still in the mail to me and will not arrive for a short while.

Anecdotally the information in these books would suggest that more than the previously indicated 1,200 personnel were involved in the battle of Vittorio-Veneto. That would suggest that at least all those supporting troops, including the aviators would also be qualified. If this is the case then previous estimate of 4,800 personnel being entitled to the Italy service clasp would have to be revised downward as well.

Interesting times.

Regards,

Rob

I do not agree with your statement (4,800 personnel being entitled to the Italy service clasp would have to be revised downward as well)and here's why.

The "Italy" clasp: There were 500 Air Service pilots training in Italy just before the battle of Vittorio Veneto. They would have had crew members (machine gunners), ground crews and mechanics' to service the new type bomber, they to would need training. And lets not forget supply and support units for this group of Air Service men. To me that would account for about maybe 1,200-1,500 men in that group in Italy. The Navy also sent pilots for training. There were U.S. Subchaser bases in Italy. As we know in 1940 the Navy Dept. allowed the Naval personnel to be awarded the Army's clasp for service in Italy. To me all that would cut into the number4,800.

If the 332nd Inf. in Italy, only had 1,200 are we to believeno officers, support units or bomber crews were any where near the battle, ofcourse not. I have read somewhere that others believe that the number should bearound 2,500 Vittorio Veneto medals.

The "Russia" clasp: The 339th Inf. 1,200 menstrong, and 310th Eng. lets say had 500-800 Engineers who were sent to Russia,I ask? who were the other 7,000 men?

The "Siberia" clasp: The 27th & 31 Inf Regiments. from the Philippine Division (cut to800 men each because of their location to the war). were sent to Siberia, yet they were awarded around 9,000clasps. Who were the other (7,400) awardedtoo?

Adding to the mix, in both cases the soldiers from theRussia and Siberia campaigns were entitled to either the battle clasp DefensiveSector (if they were engaged as a combatant and many as we know did fight anddied in Russia). Or, they could just request the Service clasp "Russia - Siberia". I am sure many would taken the"battle" clasp Defensive Sector and that could add at least another4,000 clasps.

To recap we awarded 9,000 to Russia, 9,000 to Siberia and maybe 4,000 (or more) with the Defensive Sector clasp for a total of at least 22,000 men.

If the 339th Inf. & 310th Eng. had 2,000 men and the27th & 31st Inf. had 1,600 men plus there were 4,000 combatants who werethe other 16,400 men? Support units?

This bring me full circle. If the Russia & Siberia campaigns netted 22,000, why do feel 4,800 clasps for Italy is to be lower?

I am heading out the door on a trip and wrote this reply on the fly.

Jim

Edited by johnnymac

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Jim,

All good points regarding these clasps, letter styles and catalogue listings. What would help is if anyone has a copy of these old catalogues to post some pics.

The journey on attempting to identify all these clasp varieties continues.

Regards,

Rob

To All (Old subject)

I received another personnel email about Bailey, Banks & Biddle clasp in A. Laslo's book so I'll post my answer.

1. We know that they made Navy clasp because their designwas approved, but they lost the contract.

2. The design of the, Army of Occupation clasp is mentioned in Laslo's book. On page 119, Laslo touches on the subject of the "Army of Occupation" clasp,which he listed as an unofficial clasp. Mr. Laslo wrote, "Manufacturedby Bailey, Banks & Biddle. "Appears" in George W. Studley's 1939 catalog for $.25 each".This tells me, that Mr. Laslo did not personally have knowledgeof the clasp even being an unofficial clasp of Bailey, Banks and Biddle, rather he was relying on a catalog for his documentation on this clasp.

3. Would it be logical for BB&B to redesign a Navy clasp when they already had a approved version - no. Why not sell the old approved one?

4. Would it be logical for BB&B to design 17 Campaignclasps when it was never needed or would be ever be approved by the Army - no.

5. Would it be logical for BB&B to make a Army & Service clasps far different then the authorized issue style - again no.

6. We know that BB&B put their logo on the approved Navy clasps - so why not on the four clasp types listed above?

7 Bottom line - George Studley put the Army of occupation clasp in his catalog and listed it as a BB&B - To make it more saleable.

Jim

post-8368-025812300 1294845257_thumb.jpg

Edited by johnnymac

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I do not agree with your statement (4,800 personnel being entitled to the Italy service clasp would have to be revised downward as well)and here's why.

The "Italy" clasp: There were 500 Air Service pilots training in Italy just before the battle of Vittorio Veneto. They would have had crew members (machine gunners), ground crews and mechanics' to service the new type bomber, they to would need training. And lets not forget supply and support units for this group of Air Service men. To me that would account for about maybe 1,200-1,500 men in that group in Italy. The Navy also sent pilots for training. There were U.S. Subchaser bases in Italy. As we know in 1940 the Navy Dept. allowed the Naval personnel to be awarded the Army's clasp for service in Italy. To me all that would cut into the number4,800.

If the 332nd Inf. in Italy, only had 1,200 are we to believeno officers, support units or bomber crews were any where near the battle, ofcourse not. I have read somewhere that others believe that the number should bearound 2,500 Vittorio Veneto medals.

This bring me full circle. If the Russia & Siberia campaigns netted 22,000, why do feel 4,800 clasps for Italy is to be lower?

I am heading out the door on a trip and wrote this reply on the fly.

Jim

Hello Jim,

Good points, well considered.

It would be an interesting challenge to find any official paperwork listing the final estimated numbers given these changes.

Regards,

Rob

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Gentlemen.

I realized that my medal victory USA. with this clap "defensive sector" inverted. . This would be the last in the medal ribbon .. :o

lambert

Hello Lambert,

It is not entirely unusual to see a us vic with the DEFENSIVE SECTOR (DS) clasp on the top. There are numerous other examples seen with the Defensive Sector clasp out of order. It has been suggested that these clasps were placed on the top in the time when it was still not confirmed exactly where the DS clasp would sit. The original battle clasps were approved earlier than the DS clasp. It is interesting that in your example the bottom MEUSE-ARGONNE claps has no spacers. This would probably indicate that, at the time of issue, it was supposed to be the bottom clasp.

It wasn't until after the DS clasp was authorised that the dress regulations were changed to indicate the DS clasp was to be placed on the bottom. Now it is much more common to see the us vics with the DS clasp on the bottom with the spacers removed.

I have such a us vic in my collection that has the DS clasp on top which was issued in early 1920 and another couple where the DS clasp still has its feet. It is also not unusual to see us vis without a DS clasp if the recipient did not receive the medal originally with the clasp.

A nice example of an early issue vic.

Regards,

Rob

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Here's my US Victory Medal, with the service ribbon attatched.

Hello Obergefreiter,

A nice us vic with FRANCE bar. Of note is that the ribbon bar appears to be of French manufacture. This is characterised by the two prongs of the lateral catch on the reverse. If you take the ribbon off there may be a marking of the producer on the reverse. Are there any such marking?

Regards,

Rob

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Hello Lambert,

It is not entirely unusual to see a us vic with the DEFENSIVE SECTOR (DS) clasp on the top. There are numerous other examples seen with the Defensive Sector clasp out of order. It has been suggested that these clasps were placed on the top in the time when it was still not confirmed exactly where the DS clasp would sit. The original battle clasps were approved earlier than the DS clasp. It is interesting that in your example the bottom MEUSE-ARGONNE claps has no spacers. This would probably indicate that, at the time of issue, it was supposed to be the bottom clasp.

It wasn't until after the DS clasp was authorised that the dress regulations were changed to indicate the DS clasp was to be placed on the bottom. Now it is much more common to see the us vics with the DS clasp on the bottom with the spacers removed.

I have such a us vic in my collection that has the DS clasp on top which was issued in early 1920 and another couple where the DS clasp still has its feet. It is also not unusual to see us vis without a DS clasp if the recipient did not receive the medal originally with the clasp.

A nice example of an early issue vic.

Regards,

Rob

Thanks Rob!

Your response is entirely plausible.

I had this doubt for a long time .. would think it was a fake, then placed to appreciate the Medal.

Lambert

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Hello Obergefreiter,

A nice us vic with FRANCE bar. Of note is that the ribbon bar appears to be of French manufacture. This is characterised by the two prongs of the lateral catch on the reverse. If you take the ribbon off there may be a marking of the producer on the reverse. Are there any such marking?

Regards,

Rob

Rob, I havn't had a chance to check, yet, but I'll let you know one way or the other. Nick.

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Hello Obergefreiter,

A nice us vic with FRANCE bar. Of note is that the ribbon bar appears to be of French manufacture. This is characterised by the two prongs of the lateral catch on the reverse. If you take the ribbon off there may be a marking of the producer on the reverse. Are there any such marking?

Regards,

Rob

I checked last night, and there is a Mfg. hallmark of "SGDG" on the back of the service ribbon, and what appears to be some sort of a quality control stamp that looks like a square with one open end. Does this mean anything to you?

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