Imperial German Non Combatant Officer’s Medal Bar

[misiu]

Hi experts,

I discovered the following medal bar in the internet.

What do you think? Are there some doubts about it?

Regards

Detlef

[Wild Card]

Certainly a very impressive looking bar; but I am curious as to why

the Hohenzollern is mounted before the Red Eagle and Crowns.

Is this correct?

[saschaw]

Detlef, see here: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/10702-1870-non-combatant-iron-cross-officers-medal-bar/

Certainly a very impressive looking bar; but I am curious as to why

the Hohenzollern is mounted before the Red Eagle and Crowns.

Is this correct?

Yes, that's how they should be in this classes - it only were the other way round if the HOH were a 4th class. The 3rd class outranks any Prussian piece time order.

[Deruelle]

Hi Detlef,

some questions : where is the long service medal. With an impressive bar like that, I'm esthonished that such medal is not present here.

Another question : why there is two crown order medals, even if the ribbons are different ?

About the commemorative medal of 1870-1871 war, the ribbon looks differents than usual ? But I'm not specialist of this aera, I will wait for expert's answers

Christophe

[Paul C]

The is a non-combattants bar and I do not believe that he was an army officer. I think he was an official and therefore did not have the officier long service cross.

[Ulsterman]

The is a non-combattants bar and I do not believe that he was an army officer. I think he was an official and therefore did not have the officier long service cross.

He should be easy to trace by the noncom EK2 (1870) alone!

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hmmm... not sure... there were quite a few of those I think,

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello all:

I know some of the history of this group prior to the year 2000 and personally inspected it many years ago. In the 1970's it was a featured sale item of Ernst Blass. The RAO III. with Crown is a horrid quality bronze-gilt "spangenstuck" if I remember correctly. All of the ribbons appear to be old however. Although impressive looking, somewhat of a mystery to all who have ever owned it.

Best regards

[saschaw]

Although impressive looking, somewhat of a mystery to all who have ever owned it.

Though some people did really try hard, a possible wearer could not yet be found - which is pretty odd with such a bar.

[misiu]

I am now really wondering whether this bar might be in fact realistic, but in reality just a put together piece (because no one can identify it).

Could this be also the reason that this bar changed its owner so often in the past?

[Wild Card]

Yes, that's how they should be in this classes - it only were the other way round if the HOH were a 4th class. The 3rd class outranks any Prussian piece time order.

Thank you Saschaw - very interesting.

Live and learn.

:cheers:

[Daniel Krause]

I would like to hold it in my hands for a proper inspection. I have some serious doubts about it.

It might be that the bar alone os real, but single decorations are at least partly exchanged.

Why?

- the Red Eagle is a crappy "wearers copy" - the Hohenzollern seems to be golden; why to put one awarded piece and one self purchased next to each other??

- the Ernestinian looks silver gilt, at that time it should have been awarded I would expect a solid golden one

- the Saxon albert knight 2nd class seems to be a quite low class on that bar. Usually foreigners got one step higher than native Saxons that time, so I would at least expect a knight 1st.

Greetings

Daniel

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello Daniel:

The HHO is NOT gold. It is gilded-silver if I remember correctly. The SEHO piece is gilded silver. There are no gold awards on this bar which does not make sense for this time period.

Best regards

I would like to hold it in my hands for a proper inspection. I have some serious doubts about it.

It might be that the bar alone os real, but single decorations are at least partly exchanged.

Why?

- the Red Eagle is a crappy "wearers copy" - the Hohenzollern seems to be golden; why to put one awarded piece and one self purchased next to each other??

- the Ernestinian looks silver gilt, at that time it should have been awarded I would expect a solid golden one

- the Saxon albert knight 2nd class seems to be a quite low class on that bar. Usually foreigners got one step higher than native Saxons that time, so I would at least expect a knight 1st.

Greetings

Daniel

[saschaw]

I saw better pictures now: The HOH3 is a post-1930 Doorn cross by Gebr. Godet. Gilt of course.

That does totally not fit the bar...

[Stogieman]

My problems with this bar are a little more basic. However I agree with all of the "deeper" responses.

I look at this bar and at a simple first glance find it impossible to accept as authentic for two reasons:

A) I have never seen a professionally made German medal bar of this caliber that did not have precisely identical and perfect ribbon mounts.

B) The bright color/brand new look of the ribbons alone on a bar of this era make me cringe.

[sambolini]

B) The bright color/brand new look of the ribbons alone on a bar of this era make me cringe.

ALWAYS a red flag for myself as well.

Regards,

Sam K.

Edited July 18, 2011 by sambolini

[misiu]

Thanks for all the answers....let us see what will be the result this Thursday...starting price is 3.500 pounds.

[misiu]

Auction result: 3.200 pounds...rather disappointing, or?

[Komtur]

Auction result: 3.200 pounds...rather disappointing, or?

Yup

If there would be any chance for this bar to be an original one, the result should be much more then double!

I once had a dream

Regards, Komtur.

[Deruelle]

Hi,

Is this bar in the hands of a member here ? If so it will be great to have several close up of the medals and the ribbons.

Christophe

[Komtur]

As wrote before by SaschaW:

1.) The HOH3 is made definitively after 1930

2.) There is NO person to be found in the Königlich Preußischen Ordenslisten with a combination of EK21870w/HOH3/RAO3Kr/KO4EB. To prevent a discussion of a "lost" red cross on the KO4: there is also NO person to be found with the combination of these decorations with a KO4GK.

Only because of these two points there is no chance for this bar to be an original one. Besides of this, there are some other reasons ...

Regards, Komtur.

Edited August 14, 2011 by Komtur

[Chris Boonzaier]

I read the so-called identification of the HOH3 by a member here. Basically, he said that he saw a picture of it, and declared unilaterally that it is a post 1930 piece.

Do you think it is not possible to determine in this way?

[Schießplatzmeister]

I read the so-called identification of the HOH3 by a member here. Basically, he said that he saw a picture of it, and declared unilaterally that it is a post 1930 piece. That's it. No explanation of why he thinks the HOH3 is post 1930. Who has held this piece in his hand and evaluated it? Not many, I should think. People who talk in Absolutes and who use words like "Definitely" about a tricky subject like this should maybe try to take a more analytical and scientific approach.

Hello:

I have personally inspected this item and I concur 100% with the comments made by the very experienced collector/dealer who made the comments regarding the HHO3 and determined that it is a post-1930 piece.

Best regards

Edited August 15, 2011 by Schießplatzmeister

[Komtur]

HOH3 from the bar

[Komtur]

Orderbar of the priest Hoene, HOH3 awarded 30th of April 1933