EK 1914 the "other" iron crosses...

[joe campbell]

i have often seen the statement

"this state's version of the iron cross"

or

"that duchy's issue of the prussian iron cross"...

i would be interested in hearing which of these

awards really meet the criteria:

issued in 1914-1918 period.

in line with the issue guidelines for the EK 1 or EK 2.

thanks you kindly for your participation!

joe

[Stogieman]

OK Prussian EK1/EK2: Note that these 2.kl. also were awarded as non-combattant on distinctive ribbons.

Anhalt Friedrich Cross 1.kl./2.kl.

Brunswick Ernst August Cross 1.kl./2.kl.

Lippe War Merit Cross 1.kl./2.kl.

Schaumberg-Lippe: Cross for True Service 1.kl./2.kl.

Mecklenburg-Schwerin: Friedrich Franz Military Merit Cross 1.kl/2.kl.

Mecklenberg-Strelitz: Cross for Distinction in War 1.kl./2.kl.

Oldenburg Friedrich August Cross 1.kl./2.kl.

(OK, this next one is questionable)

Sax-Coburg-Gothe: Military Remembrance Cross 1.kl./2.kl.

Now other states had various medals and crosses, but the above ones are the ones (IMO) that really parallel the Prussian EK

[joe campbell]

muchas gracias, professor!

how 'bout?:

hanseatenkreuzen

Lubeck,

Bremen,

Hamburg?

Reuss pinback War Merit Cross?

Saxe-Weimar Wilhelm Ernst Cross?

Wuttemburg Wilhelm Cross 1st

and 2nd with/without swords and homefront social welfare?

BTW, i agree with the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha.

IMHO, these are reflections of not only Germanic pride,

but more specifically state, duchal, city pride as well.

thanks!

joe

[Stogieman]

Hi Joe, these additional decorations you mentioned I would not consider a parallel due to the fact that they were not issued as a pinback First & a ribboned Second Class. The W?rttemberg Wilhelm's.... maybe. But I do not believe the award criteria was paralleled or we would see substantially more of these. With W?rttemberg, I would consider their bravery medal in gold/silver a closer match. But as they are not crosses, I omitted them. Same with hesse. the "General Bravery Medal" is probably as close as they get with the "Honor Badge" for the EK1. But again, we don't have the same piece issued in 2 classes.....

[joe campbell]

rick-

i certainly see what you mean.

a 1st AND 2nd class would be appropriate.

i was looking at the dates of issue -

these are all instituted early on in the war,

and generally recognize brave/valorous deeds.

my thanks!

any other thoughts?

joe

[Stogieman]

For me, in order to be an "equivalent", it had to have the pinback 1er, and the ribboned 2er. I had not even considered institution date at all. For example, the Mecklenburg FFK was awarded as 1. & 2. Kl. as far back as the 1870/71 war! (Try and find those 2!!!!)

[David Gregory]

Joe,

The approximate equivalents of the Iron Cross are also a theme which I collect, whereby my loose definition is largely a matter of personal preference and affordability.

While my collecting focus is mainly on service records, personal papers and award documents roughly from 1914 to 1918, I also try to acquire representative examples of combattant awards to go with them or complete groups.

The awards that I loosely consider to be Iron Cross equivalents are based on an idea suggested elsewhere by Dave Danner. He pointed out that there were no really true equivalents to the Iron Cross, since a two-class cross award system is limited to only a few states. His requirement was that they be the basic award of the state, generally considered a prerequisite for higher awards and usually open to both officers and enlisted men. As he explained, the awards of some states did not meet these criteria. He also pointed out another important aspect, which I consider a reasonable exclusion factor:

Further, some awards that might be considered equivalents, such as the Wilhelm-Ernst Kriegskreuz of Sachsen-Weimar and the Carl-Eduard Kriegskreuz of Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha are too rare, appeared too late, and had too specific of award criteria to really qualify in my book.

The list below is closely based on Dave Danner's definition with a few changes made to suit my personal preferences:

• Anhalt - Friedrichkreuz
• Baden - Verdienstmedaille am Bande des MKFVOs
• Bayern - various grades of MVK (NCOs, other ranks) and MVO (officers)
• Braunschweig - Kriegsverdienstkreuz (1st & 2nd classes)
• Bremen - Hanseatenkreuz
• Hamburg - Hanseatenkreuz
• Hessen - Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen "F?r Tapferkeit", Krieger-Ehrenzeichen in Eisen (rare, but nevertheless included in my list)
• Hohenzollern - FHHO (officers), goldene Ehrenmedaille mit Schwertern and silberne Verdienstmedaille mit Schwertern (NCOs, other ranks)
• Lippe-Detmold - Kriegsehrenkreuz, Kriegsverdienstkreuz
• Schaumburg-Lippe - Kreuz f?r Treue Dienste
• L?beck - Hanseatenkreuz
• Mecklenburg-Schwerin - Milit?rverdienstkreuz (1st & 2nd classes)
• Mecklenburg-Strelitz - Kreuz f?r Auszeichnung im Kriege (1st & 2nd classes)
• Oldenburg - Friedrich August-Kreuz (1st & 2nd classes)
• Preu?en - Eisernes Kreuz (1st & 2nd classes)
• Reuss - Ehrenkreuz (officers) & goldene/silberne Verdienstmedaille mit Schwertern (NCOs, other ranks); Reuss' pinback KVK seems too rare
• Sachsen - Albrechtsorden (officers), Friedrich-August-Medaillen (NCOs and other ranks)
• Sachsen-Weimar - White Falcon (officers), allgemeines Ehrenzeichen mit Bandschnalle und Schwertern (NCOs, other ranks); Wilhelm-Ernst Kriegskreuz is too rare for me
• Sachsen-Altenburg - many possibilities: SEHO and associated medals; Herzog Ernst Medaille (1st class cross too rare for me); Tapferkeitsmedaille (the basic award by my definition)
• Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha - same as Altenburg: SEHO (as above); oval silver Herzog Carl Eduard-Medaille; Carl-Eduard Kriegskreuz is too rare for me
• Sachsen-Meiningen - Kreuz (officers) and Medaille (NCOs and other ranks) f?r Verdienste im Kriege
• Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt und Sonderhausen - Silbermedaille f?r Verdienste im Kriege (the basic award by my definition)
• Waldeck - Verdienstkreuz and associated Verdienstmedaillen
• W?rttemberg - MVO or Friedrichs-Orden mit Schwertern (officers); Milit?rverdienstmedaillen (NCOs, other ranks)

The above awards, either as single items, two-piece combinations of the Iron Cross and the state award, or three-piece combinations of the Iron Cross plus state award and Hindenburg cross, form an achievable (and mostly affordable) sub-category and complement the documents that are the main theme of my collection.

A few other merit and home service awards could also be added to the list, such as Hessen's Milit?r-Sanit?ts-Kreuz 1914, an example of which I have finally obtained (thanks Tony) to match an award entry in a Milit?rpass to a Sanit?ter, but they are not really basic awards in my opinion.

David

[joe campbell]

david-

this is a most impressive and thoughtful response!

i like the rather looser criteria you employ, and

have had some success finding the two and three place

mounted groupings you discuss.(the price of that

cased knight's cross - which is quite beautiful! -

would easily pay for essentially all of the pieces

mentioned in your list, including the rare birds.)

i am going to take some time digesting your

list, but it seems a very reasonable working list

of bravery medals.

could you direct me to dave danner's earlier

comments on this subject.

your response is much appreciated!

joe

[Stogieman]

I'm sorry, but I would respectfully disagree with your list being "equivalent"on many grounds.

Many of the awards you list are "Officer Only", the EK was not limited this way.

The Hanseatic Crosses were available to any/all ranks but only came in one class. Was it "equivalent" to an EK2, or an EK1?

There are other differences, but then it becomes a simple matter of how you wish to interpret the word "equivalent".

[David Gregory]

I'm sorry, but I would respectfully disagree with your list being "equivalent"on many grounds.

Many of the awards you list are "Officer Only", the EK was not limited this way.

The Hanseatic Crosses were available to any/all ranks but only came in one class. Was it "equivalent" to an EK2, or an EK1?

There are other differences, but then it becomes a simple matter of how you wish to interpret the word "equivalent".

Stogieman,

I agree. The absence of any real equivalents means that the list I posted above will have to be regarded as personal preference, as I pointed out.

Few states had awards with remotely similar criteria to the Iron Cross. Dave Danner suggested the following criteria as a starting point:

• a military decoration in two classes (1st/2nd class, pin-back and suspended from a ribbon)
• a military decoration awarded to officers and enlisted men without regard to rank
• a basic military decoration of the particular German state

A combination of these criteria mean that only the Mecklenburg and Oldenburg crosses stand any sort of comparison. Braunschweig came close, but the 1st class cross appeared very late in the war. Lippe-Detmold doesn't really fit as the pin-back and cross suspended from a ribbon were two different awards, even if they looked alike. The Schaumburg-Lippe pin-back cross was intended for members of the ruling house only, so it doesn't really match, either.

Some states had an award that was open to all ranks, other states distinguished between officers on the one hand, and NCOs/other ranks on the other. The Bavarian MVK came in six different flavours depending on rank, for example, although the rarity of some of them excludes them from my list. The Thuringian duchies offer too many possibilities and there are no real equivalents.

Loose application of the criteria above and personal preference (reflected by rarity/affordability) resulted in this list, which suits me as a framework of what I would like to collect as representative examples of the bravery awards bestowed by the various German states between 1914 and 1918. They are also the awards typically entered in the Milit?rp?sse, Soldb?cher and other papers that I collect.

I emphasise the fact that my criteria are loosely applied, since I forgot to add the silver St. Henry medal as an approximate EK1 equivalent, which could just as easily be included as many other awards.

Does anyone else collect in the same way, e.g. basic bravery/merit awards of the various states?

David

[joe campbell]

kudos to both rick and dave!

this is certainly a subject which is open to

both strict and less-strict criteria, depending on

what you are after.

i have begun a case with at least some of those

mentioned on dave's longer list which i think is

a great way to tour the bravery/merit medals

of the various states/grand duchies/duchies/etc.

bearing in mind that rick's criteria of 1st/2nd...

relatively larger #'s of the award...

common to all members of the armed forces....

is more accurate, it sure does provide a basis for

some terrific pieces!

thanks again, gentlemen!

joe

to start the ball rolling!

[joe campbell]

reverse(s).

[Chris Boonzaier]

I think the truth lies somewhere between the two.

Strictly speaking, unless the other states said "Lets have a medal that has the same rules as the EK" then there cannot really be a 100% equivelent.

My rule of thumb would be...

"if non Prussian Gefreiter Joe and Hauptmann Whatsisname had spent long enough to get a n EK2 and or EK1........ what would their own state have hung on them in the same timeframe for the same deeds."

Living on the Hessen border but just inside Bavaria I always consider the Hessen silver bravery medal anf the Bavarian 3rd class with swords to be almost automatic EK2 extensions that are very often found together.

However, neither of these has a 1st class version.

I doubt any collectors would see 100% eye to eye on this because it all depends on the interpretation of "Equivelent"... optically similar? Same classes? same rules? awarded in the same numbers? for the same bravery? service?

For me it boils down to... what would am old sweat have had at the end of the war..i.e. a Hessen soldier got Prussian and hessen awards, ... what did the two states give him in the same time period....

It must have sucked to be a Prussian... just getting awards from one state......

[joe campbell]

senor chris!!

LOL!!!

great way to view it!

joe

[Stogieman]

Yeah, I take a pretty narrow view. To me, the biggest comparison would have to be that the award was in two classes and available to enlisted/officer alike; without regard to rank. This was a departure for Prussia. Much of their hierarchy of awards was rigid and if you were not an officer, you did not get to play.

Saxony would come pretty close with the established Military Order of Saint Henry. There being both an Officer (RK) and Enlisted (Medals-Gold & Silver)... but even there, an enlisted could not get the RK, so I discount it.

[Stogieman]

PS for Joe. Still love seeing all three of the Hanseatic crosses together. It's not the easiest thing to do!

[Dave Danner]

My rule of thumb would be...

"if non Prussian Gefreiter Joe and Hauptmann Whatsisname had spent long enough to get a n EK2 and or EK1........ what would their own state have hung on them in the same timeframe for the same deeds."

This is essentially my rule of thumb as well.

I agree with Stogie-Rick's point on "pure" EK-equivalents, which is why I denoted the various levels. A "pure" EK-equivalent would satisfy all three criteria: (1) basic award of the state, (2) awarded without regard to rank, and (3) coming in two classes. Thus, there are only a in few category 3, like Prussia and Oldenburg, a few more in category two, like the Hanseatic Cities, and a bunch in category 1, like Bavaria and Baden. Hesse is a sort of category 2.5, since the Krieger-Ehrenzeichen isn't technically a higher class of the Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen. If you limit your collecting interest to true category 3 awards, you may find yourself chasing relatively rare awards, like the Cross 1st Class for Distinction in War, at the expense of awards far more likely to actually have been encountered by combat soldiers of the various states.

If we broaden our scope beyond World War One, we would have to add another criterion: that the award be specifically authorized for a conflict, in which case only Prussia and Mecklenburg-Schwerin qualify. Mecklenburg-Strelitz did not create a 1st Class of its Cross for Distinction in War until 1915; the Franco-Prussian War version came in one class.

Of course, when you look beyond WW1, you have to add Prussia to the list again, since for the Wars of Unification (except the Franco-Prussian War), colonial campaigns and Boxer Rebellion there was no Iron Cross. There, Prussia is like the other kingdoms and most other states in having rank-specific basic awards: Crown Order and Red Eagle Order with Swords for officers, Military Decoration for enlisted men.

There is another criterion alluded to previously but also important: although primarily a Prussian award, the Iron Cross was awarded without great regard to nationality as well. A few other states awarded their decorations to particularly deserving non-citizens, but many had stricter criteria. This is especially the case with those pinback crosses of the various Thuringian states, which required a close nexus between the state and the recipient. This also affects the judgment as to whether Hesse's KEZ is truly analogous to the EK1.

[Stogieman]

I'd like to thank everybody for what has turned into an extremely informative and interesting thread! Keep up the good work!

[Dave Danner]

This is actually the subject of an article I was writing, which would flesh out the discussion of the various criteria and provide descriptions of the awards for each state.

The topic is especially complicated as regards second awards. In some cases, there was no provision for a second award (as in the Hanseatic cities). In some cases, an intervening promotion might make one eligible for a second award of the same decoration in a higher grade, while someone who was not promoted might be eligible for another award, or for nothing at all. And in many cases, because a second award was also usually a higher award, the same type of act of bravery would not necessarily result in another award.

Saxony is a good example. If you were a Gefreiter, you might start out with a bronze FAM as a rough EK2 equivalent. For repeated acts of bravery, you might get a silver FAM, so for you, that might be equivalent to an EK1. But for a sergeant, the silver FAM was your EK2 equivalent first award and an Honor Cross with Swords might come for repeated acts of bravery. But in both cases, a really significant act of bravery might lead to a St. Henry Medal instead. If this were after already having a basic FAM, arguably the St. Henry Medal was the EK1 equivalent.

The same goes for officers. For a Leutnant, the Albert Order Knight 2nd Class with Swords was usually the first award. If as cadet in 1914 you received the sFAM, that AR2x you got as a Leutnant would be your second award. A Merit Order Knight 2nd Class with Swords might be your second award, but if you were that already-decorated cadet, it might be your third. An Oberleutnant who got the AR2x would expect that VR2x to be his second award, but if he was promoted to Hauptmann, he might skip that and be eligible for an AR1x instead. With good timing for promotions and acts of bravery, a Saxon who marched off to the sound of the guns of August as a cadet might progress through the sFAM, AR2x, VR2x, AR1x and VR1x if he managed to make Hauptmann by war's end. And all of that is without considering where the MSHO fits into the scheme (a complicated topic in its own right: considering the number of awards relative to the size of the Saxon Army, the MSHO might be considered to combine features of both the Royal House Order of Hohenzollern and the Pour le Merite in the Prussian scheme).

[joe campbell]

rick-

ditto what you said in yor last post!

dave-

your stock is going up by the minute! while i only

relatively recently got the imperial bug, and have to spend

some time digesting what you are saying, it has been

most thought provoking. i hope that at some point

i bocome as conversant - and comfortable - as you are.

kudos!

joe

[joe campbell]

a few recent acquisitions re: the other iron crosses.

you are welcome to use your own definition, but they

are nice, small bars.

joe

[joe campbell]

another

[joe campbell]

more

[joe campbell]

last, for now.

PLEASE feel free to add yours.

joe

[Bob Hunter]

Gawd, Joseph! Those are beautiful pieces!