Prussia Pour Le Merite

[Chris Liontas]

doc 2

[Chris Liontas]

Much better than any regular PLM debate, LT Jacobs log book!! Now this I could spend hours reading. I believe it was translated for Cross and Cockade, but I dont know the year

[Chris Liontas]

closeup on the book cover

[Chris Liontas]

calling card.

[Chris Liontas]

whew I am tired now. I look forward to the replies here. I am very interested to know what everyone thinks. I have my own opinion, after starting this thread, but I will save it until later :)

[Chris Liontas]

ok one more shot just for fun! Happy weekend everyone

[jaba1914]

What have a Ulanen uniform and Jacobs common. Nothing. Jacob never was in a cavalry unit.

The medal bar on the uniform is not corect and the PLM is not an original. There is everything wrong.

It is possible that he wear a S&L PLM later but the medal bar is not Jacobs.

Regards Alex

Edited September 2, 2011 by jaba1914

[Les]

What have a Ulanen uniform and Jacobs common. Nothing. Jacob never was in a cavalry unit.

The medal bar on the uniform is not corect and the PLM is not an original. There is everything wrong.

It is possible that he wear a S&L PLM later but the medal bar is not Jacobs.

Regards Alex

Alex, richtig!

Jacobs learned to fly shortly before the war. In August 1914, he enlisted directly into the aviation service, and was sent to the training depot at Darmstadt. He was never in a cavalry unit, nor part of a Bavarian unit. I agree with Alex saying there is nothing in common with Jacobs and a (Bavarian at that!) Uhlanka and or cavalry unit.

The Pour le Merite Urkunde looks odd. The basic document type is the generic orders form, although the handwriting combines traditional Suetterlinschrift with "Latinische". Clerks who filed in the details usually had a very fine hand, and were chosen so their handwriting matched the printed document. Usually the added information is slightly larger than the rest of the document but otherwise close in style, etc. This document does not convince me that it's genuine, but appears to be a copy.

None of the "Parks" Pour le Merite's are genuine wartime pieces, and were not made prior to the end of WWII. The ex-O'Connor piece in the Technical Museum does appear to be a genuine WWI era piece, and not a copy. The "navy ace" giving Jacob's one of the pieces, is a reference to Theo Osterkamp, a naval PlM recipient in WWI, and RK recipient and double ace in WWII, who was the titular head of the Ritter des Ordens PlM (aviation recipients) from the late 1930's until his death in the 1970's. On the 50th anniversary of Jacob's award of the PlM, Osterkamp is said to have had a new cross with an attached "50 year crown" made and given to Jacobs. Edkins and O'Connor both show the same piece in their books.

The Jacobs' diary has been translated and published in parts, in Cross and Cockade (starting in the 1990's) by Stephen Lawson. It is not a complete book, and is missing sections, particularly the last few months of the war.

Josef Jacobs was an interesting man. During the 1930's he started an aviation firm, and then relocated it to Holland after the Nazi's came to power. He did not want to do business with them and was outspoken in his opinions of the NSDAP and it's members. Shortly before WWII, he ended the company and returned to Germany. During WWII, he held a reserve major's commission without a leadership role. After the war, he attempted to start other businesses, but none of his efforts went anywhere. In his later years, he fell on hard times and survived through a government pension and social welfare programs. He died in Munich, during 1978.

Discussions of Jacob's items in various collections, usually say that he gave the items to so and so. I'm not so certain that was the situation. Stephen Lawson, who has been associated with the Parks Museum, says that after Jacons died in 1978, Jacob's widow Tatiana Jacobs sold parts of his collection to a small number of aviation collectors (see http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/2002/13190-josef-jacobs-diary-pieces.html ). Parks, O'Connor, Theimeyer and J. Gross bought items offered by Jacob's widow from his estate.

Jacobs has been dead for over 30 years, and instead of Jacob's giving items away, his widow may have sold his estate in an effort to raise money for her needs after the death of her husband. Who bought what and how much was paid may not be possible to determine. What we can do however, is consider whether some of the pieces were actually Jacob's, or if there was a chance his widow "added" items to his estate and make it seem larger than it really was. The Bavarian uniform group seems out of place, and whether or not his widow (living in Munich) picked up a Bavarian uniform group to add to the "group" so it could be sold would not be the first (or last time) pieces were "married" to a collection/grouping that was going to be sold to competing collectors.

Is it possible Tatiana Jacobs added a few items to her late husbands estate, and then sold parts of the estate off to make more money and to ease her financial situation a little? The American expression "you betcha!" comes to mind. Some of the items are clearly not Jacob's, and that calls into question whether his widow wasn't adding items with a profit motive in mind, knowing that many people wouldn't or care that various details didn't quite add up.

[Komtur]

Hm, strange. The "award document" is also not the real thing. At the best it is an official emitted duplicate, but I can not remember seeing something in that way. Additionaly I didn´t like the lettering of the handwriting at all. The document is signed GKamitz, unfortunately his name was Graf Kanitz.

Regards, Komtur.

Edited September 2, 2011 by Komtur

[Deruelle]

Hi ,

Agreed with Les and Komtur, the pour le mérite document is not genuine. I have just read the Previtera's book and it is completely different.

Christophe

[Chris Liontas]

Thanks for the comments guys!

Les, thank you for the history on this group! I did not know the exact history of how James Parks recieved these medals. From what I had been told, he was given them. The information you provide shines a little more light. Andy is convinced they were given, but now it appears they were bought. Do you know how they were sold? Was it individualy, or via an auction?

[GMU]

On 9/1/2011 at 22:12, Chris Liontas said:

Award document (photo of LT Jacobs in 1978 I think)

 

Yes, as others have said, this document doesn't look any good.  That is not Von Kanitz's original signature...

Edited September 22, 2017 by GMU

[Wild Card]

Hi Chris,

I notice that the piece on the left in posts #1 and #2 has a “pie shaped” suspension; a type that I believe had been discontinued long before Jacobs received his award. So I doubt that this would be the piece that he received as an original award.

I find your reference to “the bright one was given to Jacobs post war by a Navy ace, and the crown is soldered onto the cross itself” very interesting. According to Neal OConnor (private conversation) Jacobs and Friedrich Christiansen, who happens to have been a navy ace, were very close friends; so it may well have been Christiansen, and not Osterkamp (post #33) who gave him “the bright one”. 

Les notes in post #33 that “During the 1930's he started an aviation firm, and then relocated it to Holland after the Nazi's came to power. He did not want to do business with them and was outspoken in his opinions of the NSDAP and it's members”. Now according to Neal, it went something like this. During the twenties or thirties, Jacobs created a company that made parts and equipment for the aircraft industry. One day, he received a visit from his old acquaintance, and fellow ace, Hermann Goering who was so impressed by the operation that he, shall we say, asked be given a piece of the action. To make a long story short, Jacobs told him where to go, closed the shop, moved to the Netherlands reopened his business and continued on until the war broke out.  

Again, Les further notes that “During WWII, he held a reserve major's commission without a leadership role.” With regard to this, Neal said that at this time, Jacobs (and I assume his family) “went underground” and his safety was assured by the military governor of the Netherlands who was none other than his old friend… Friedrich Christiansen. I must say that this point is certainly debatable; but I felt that I should pass it on. If he was, in fact, given a reserve major’s commission during the war it should be easily proven.

Chris, I’m sorry to say that I also have a real problem with that award document in post #26. Let’s just say that, among other things, it looks too fresh and is too different from the standard PLM document.

Finally, for a comparison, below is what Friedrich Christiansen came up with when he received his fifty year crown membership.

Best wishes,

Wild Card
 

[Chris Boonzaier]

I must agree with the document, not a period one.

[Schießplatzmeister]

The document is not only not a period document, it is a relatively modern forgery.

[GMU]

1 hour ago, Schießplatzmeister said:

The document is not only not a period document, it is a relatively modern forgery.

And, I am sorry to say,  a bad one.

[Deutschritter]

On 01/09/2011 at 11:31, jaba1914 said:

O'Conner had this group in his former collection.

 

What are the two medals to the far right? Russian? The last one possibly the Erinnerungsmedaille (Sankt-Georgs-Medaille) der Deutsch-Russischen Westarmee 1919? What is the medal below between EK I and Baltenkreuz? Thanks! 

Edited August 15, 2023 by Deutschritter

[VtwinVince]

The second to last is a Reuss Honour Cross 3rd Class. I think you're right about the last medal. The medal between the EK1 and Baltenkreuz looks like a Merit Medal of Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha or one of the Duchies, with the sword clasp. BTW i noticed recently that an award doc for the PLM allegedly to Jacobs is being offered on fleabay, signed by von Kanitz, along with other items, including a banged up PLM.

[Deutschritter]

4 minutes ago, VtwinVince said:

The second to last is a Reuss Honour Cross 3rd Class. I think you're right about the last medal. The medal between the EK1 and Baltenkreuz looks like a Merit Medal of Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha or one of the Duchies, with the sword clasp. BTW i noticed recently that an award doc for the PLM allegedly to Jacobs is being offered on fleabay, signed by von Kanitz, along with other items, including a banged up PLM.

 

Thank you! Maybe the Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen (Saxony-Weimar-Eisenach)?! 

[Graf]

On 02/09/2011 at 14:04, Chris Liontas said:

PLM on the uniform

Typical post war S&L production

[VtwinVince]

Yes, that is a typical Steinhauer piece. And without a close-up it will be impossible to ID that Verdienst-Medaille.

[dedehansen]

Hi Deutschritter,

 

https://www.ehrenzeichen-orden.de/deutsche-staaten/allgemeines-ehrenzeichen-silber-mit-bandschnalle-und-schwertern-1914.html

 

Kind regards

 

Andreas

[Deutschritter]

1 hour ago, dedehansen said:

Hi Deutschritter,

 

https://www.ehrenzeichen-orden.de/deutsche-staaten/allgemeines-ehrenzeichen-silber-mit-bandschnalle-und-schwertern-1914.html

 

Kind regards

 

Andreas

 

That's great, Andreas (Namensvetter), thank you!

 

Many greetings

Andreas

[Graf]

19 hours ago, dedehansen said:

Hi Deutschritter,

 

https://www.ehrenzeichen-orden.de/deutsche-staaten/allgemeines-ehrenzeichen-silber-mit-bandschnalle-und-schwertern-1914.html

 

Kind regards

 

Andreas

Thank for the link

[Daniel Cole]

Check this auction out: https://www.ebay.com/itm/334942517724?hash=item4dfc2139dc:g:-HkAAOSwNapkqd4W&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwIMKojGs%2Fk2QVLKgQr7SAlCWpftUzQ6AOVdv%2FS55NtOsyZyl7UfSPTA46O9NYGlxLhY5EATsBdI7hPxs3XdxSd%2B5dx49QJYAubacVzfs9Gc2Wua9uv4IvzkaCSR%2Fd%2FZMWMkcGrLX4y8Hw1UtCSvK0v%2BcclbNSXYlg1rOMyd76YOVImsBB%2BSXZuVpzIeHPlDevIFT%2F22KEz0OB%2B3L51lrDdDHrBLFgz3zGMOPhc9fVW5%2BdZ5lJpGb5sh9EmtdXIwLIA%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR7q5j7LCYg

 

Its relevant to the discussion. It doesn't readily pull up because of the accent above the e.