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    Bulgarian Order of St Alexander -Two Variatians?


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    Hi Igor,

     

    Congrats.

     

    If you manage to get such rare "birds" during this crazy times with almost all countries in some form of blockades That is an achievement

    Your collection of early St Alexander Order is getting very nice

     

    This is from a friend collection GC  Set from Sheild

     

    I just found this pictures in my files with the  early French model and a bit later Officer also French made

    You can see the difference

     

    Enjoy it as I did

     

    Graf

     

     

     

     

     

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    Hi Graf, 

    Thank you for pictures ! 
    may be you can post good pictures of your ubergross St. Alexander IV Class from Battenberg period ?! 
     

    Your friend have very nice collection, but I remember GC with swords over cross and don’t like this set. 
    Crown with swords not from GC, I think from neck order - 2nd or 3rd class 

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    Hi Igor

    You are right About the GC with the swords above the cross  Th Cross badge is not GC size it is , as you suggest 2nd/3rd Class one.

    I have seen few such Sets that  have been "mix and match ". Even in The  Museum  of Military History in Sofia they have few of those Sets on display.

    Even ion the picture you listed of the GC Set the Sash is from 1st Class

    Do you mean this one

     

    Graf

     

     

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    Hi  Igor,

     

    I got the Lemaitre Knight cross

    This one has a French  mark "boar head' for silver.

    The Officer is also French and also marked with "boar head" It look exactly the same as per the drawing on Lemaitre Catalogue

    I took picture next to each other, so you can compare Lemaitre one is a bit smaller by around 1mm in all dimensions

    The arms on the side do not taper as much as the arms of the Officer Class

    You can see also difference in the central medallions 

    Interestingly This Knight cross is not as thick as the Officer cross you have ??11

    Also i took, I hope better pictures of the Russian made cross It is not marked, however it is gilded silver

    It looks like converted Commander into Officer Class. I do not know when this had happened

    Is it purposely  converted before it was awarded or in a later stage. One is for sure the ribbon loop and the cross show the same age. which means it is not a recent conversion

     

    regard

     

    Graf

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    • 7 months later...

    Hi Igor,

     

    It is nice however the Document is for the princely Model

    This Cross is with Kings Crown i  suspect that it was replaced later on if the original was lost

     

    Here is similar Document with 3rd Class The Document dates earlier

    Picture 344.jpg

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    Hi Igor,

    We have discussed this one.

    The crowns are not very relevant The literature and the books are only for general information and Guide

    We have seen awards with crowns and Award Documents or boxes that do not much the books, however if there  is strong provenance  That whats matter

     

    Enjoy this French made 1st Class Princely Type

     

    Best

     

    Graf

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    Hello Gentlemen,

     

    I’d like to contribute to the topic with this 3rd class princely Rothe cross, for which I am looking for a case. If anyone have a spare one, please send me a message.

    5798A7CD-9812-4138-ABF3-1E2DACCA7A81.jpeg.68a9d198ce85bf78e8a8774c8ad3c66c.jpeg

     

    And a question. How do we distinguish an early Rothe princely beast star from a later Rothe one?

     

    Many thanks,

    Vazov

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    • 2 weeks later...
    On 05/07/2021 at 05:06, Graf said:

    Hi Igor,

     

    Look this St Alexander from the medal bar  They used similar cross as one I showed you in the post  from 14-th of October 2020

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    Such a lovely medal bar! Do we know who it belonged to?

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    On 07/07/2021 at 00:34, Igor Ostapenko said:

    I don’t know who it belonged to, but polish order Virtuti Militari awarding to romanian Major (av.) Ioan Peneș 

    0B4CE5E3-D12E-4708-82B7-8A253EE94DD7.webp

    Nice, he was a pilot. I am sure there were more than one awarding of this order to Romanians.

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    On 08/09/2019 at 15:19, new world said:

    I recently saw this Serbian medal bar with strange St Alexander with swords. St Alexander is in wrong position, it looks like it's on the ribbon for Romanian order.

    In addition, awards itself is quite unusual.

    My guess is this is privately made order. 

     

     

     

     

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    You are right - bulgarian order not from this medals bar ( like order on romanian bar ) 

     

    Now this cross in my collection , very rare russian production of Ivan Osipov 

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    Left - Wondra production ( from Darmstadt ) with early upgrade of Rothe - swords and medallion on reverse 

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    Hi Igor,

     

    I noticed that you mentioned Ivan Osipov as maker of St Alexander Order

    I came across with  information that another maker with those initials is known -Igor Ozeretskii , St Petersburg

    In other sources it is said that this is unknown maker.

    Other Russian makers also are mentioned such as S. Arndt , St Petersburg and Keibel , Moskow

    Who are the main Russian makers of early models of  Bulgarian Orders ?

     

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    Hi Graf, 

     

    Igor Ozeretskii - mistake from Bretzendorfer & Kuhn book . 
     

    only Ivan Osipov make St. Alexander order . 
     https://ak-group.ru/forum/threads/zvjozdy-sv-aleksandra-izgotovlennye-i-o.19275/ 

     ( you can use Google translator from russian ) 

     

     Keibel made golden bravery orders 1st and 2nd class . 
     

    Arndt was seller, not producer 

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    Hi Igor

     

    Thank you for the reply and the information

     

    Todor Petrov, in his book, also mentioned those Russian  Makers. Some authors  and Auction houses are quite smart they do not mention any makers names It is safe and smart

    Perhaps you of being Russian and focused on the very early St Alexander models you have better knowledge then those authors

    It is gray are not much information -very vague and general one

    Even  some of the pictures in some of the books are not correct

    For example only late Prince Dimitri Romanoff on page 70 showed the correct 1st Class Cross and Star

    Both have the central medallions in gold and the letters " St Alexander" are 3D not flat

    Especially the 1st Class Cross compared with the 2nd Class and 3rd Class Commander Crosses

     

    Amazing box It is extremely rare...and 1st Class  This is the first i have ever seen in Russian.  Is it in your collection?

     

    BTW Your collection of an early St Alexander orders is getting quite impressive Congrats

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    Hi Igor I read the information from the link

    You are quite active on the forum.

    It is good you are very  eager to get as much information as possible

    Recently on Spink Auction they sold 1st Class Cross in Gold with missing crown

    I also have sen 1st Class Cross with gold medallion in Gilded silver with the marks 84 and i assume the St Petersburg Mark  and  the Russian initials for Ivan Osipov

    In the forum from the link you suggested that the 1st and 2nd Class stars are the same size 77-78 mm. I am not very convinced even you have information from the one of the Museums.

    The 1st Cross Cross is 55 mm and the Commander crosses are 45 mm wide Why bother making the different sizes crosses and the same size Stars.

    I have seen few of those Sets where either the Cross or the Star is not the correct size. Even in the Museum in Sofia

     

    I have seen First Class Star sold on Auction and the size was 90 mm i will try to dig in my files

    Even late Prince Dimitri Romanoff stated that the 1st Class Stars are 87-92 mm I assume he had access to many of those sets

    However it is worth exploring this topic further

     

    Best

     

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    Hi Igor ,

     

    I looked at your point that only one size Star was made for both 1st Class and 2nd Class I have information from a person who is familiar with the Russian Orders and he stated that  The Russian Orders had only one size Star for both Classes. The assumption that because the 1st Model of the Order of St Alexander was made in Russia and they copied the Russian Model sounds reasonable. However i still we have to try to explore this lead.

     

    BTW i found the sale where it was stated that the Star is 1st Class, however they did not specify the size. i am not sure I the came to the conclusion that it is 1st Class..or they knew that the size is the same and listed the Star as 1st Class to get a better price.

     

    I looked again the late Prince Romanoff book He did not specify about the 1st model Star his description is general of all Models 1st Class Stars

    Now we need to come across of more 1st Class Stars and somehow to obtain their size to make better conclusions.

     

    Regards

     

    Graf

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    • 4 months later...
    On 12/07/2021 at 02:03, Graf said:

    Hi Igor I read the information from the link

    You are quite active on the forum.

    It is good you are very  eager to get as much information as possible

    Recently on Spink Auction they sold 1st Class Cross in Gold with missing crown

    I also have sen 1st Class Cross with gold medallion in Gilded silver with the marks 84 and i assume the St Petersburg Mark  and  the Russian initials for Ivan Osipov

    In the forum from the link you suggested that the 1st and 2nd Class stars are the same size 77-78 mm. I am not very convinced even you have information from the one of the Museums.

    The 1st Cross Cross is 55 mm and the Commander crosses are 45 mm wide Why bother making the different sizes crosses and the same size Stars.

    I have seen few of those Sets where either the Cross or the Star is not the correct size. Even in the Museum in Sofia

     

    I have seen First Class Star sold on Auction and the size was 90 mm i will try to dig in my files

    Even late Prince Dimitri Romanoff stated that the 1st Class Stars are 87-92 mm I assume he had access to many of those sets

    However it is worth exploring this topic further

     

    Best

     

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    Great Order !!! 
    congratulations ! ? 

    I very want some Item :) 

    We must to open separate theme about Order of St. Alexander 1st class from Battenberg period … 

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