JapanX Posted November 29, 2011 Author Share Posted November 29, 2011 Might have been done by the widow of a Japanese who received the St. Anna order, because I don't think in Tarist Russia many women, except the nobility, received Imperial orders. Have never seen a Japanese order adapted in this way. Regards, Pieter Hi Pieter! Nice to hear from you again! It will be really nice to see the pictures of this beauty... If it is possible of course... Have never seen a Japanese order adapted in this way. Me neither... What class is it? Let me guess .... 4th or 3rd? Regards, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pieter1012 Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Hi Nick, it is 35mm, so a fourth class. Interesting also is that it is the regular issue and not a non-christian version. But then, already in the early 1900's there were quite a number of Japanese that were converted to the Russian orthodox faith. A big dilemma for these people when the Russo-Japanese war started. Of course I am willing to post pictures, but don't know how to do it; I am a digilliterate. What I usually do when I send pictures is to put them on my desktop and then email them as attach. Can I do that also here, or do you have any other suggestion? thanks and regards, Pieter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted November 29, 2011 Author Share Posted November 29, 2011 (edited) Interesting also is that it is the regular issue and not a non-christian version. But then, already in the early 1900's there were quite a number of Japanese that were converted to the Russian orthodox faith. A big dilemma for these people when the Russo-Japanese war started. Still very strange that this is not special non-christian version! As far as I remember 4th class was introduced in 1815 and was intended only for servicemans... I'll make some inquiries But in the same time there was even russo-japanese society of friends!!! With their own badges! Regards, Nick Edited November 29, 2011 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 Ok guys... Something is coming... Just give me a couple of days... Stay tuned... ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted December 1, 2011 Author Share Posted December 1, 2011 (edited) Imperial Russian Order for the Japanese Lady Our story made a very interesting turn. Let’s deal with it. What we have here is nice converted 3rd class of St. Anne order (civil division) marked crown (reverse beam at 6 o’clock). No hoop and in result no additional marks. My guess is that it maybe pre-1908 Eduard or some private manufacturer … Ok. Enough of these dilettante speculations. Let’s take a look at this converted beauty (thanks to Pieter!). Edited December 1, 2011 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted December 1, 2011 Author Share Posted December 1, 2011 Obverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted December 1, 2011 Author Share Posted December 1, 2011 Reverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted December 1, 2011 Author Share Posted December 1, 2011 Edge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted December 1, 2011 Author Share Posted December 1, 2011 What was the purpose of this modernization? Let me remind you that it "had been converted into an obijime (accessory) for on the obihime (rope around the obi)." What??? Obijime is a thin rope attached to an obi. Obi is a kimono sash. Ok, ok. Let's go visual! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted December 1, 2011 Author Share Posted December 1, 2011 Here we have a nice example of obijime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted December 1, 2011 Author Share Posted December 1, 2011 And obijime in another style (round obijime are more formal than this flat one and plain, solid colors are more formal than patterned). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted December 1, 2011 Author Share Posted December 1, 2011 And this is an example of obi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted December 1, 2011 Author Share Posted December 1, 2011 I hope these pictures gave you the general idea of the real purpose of conversion. Now let's discuss the provenance of this converted piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted December 1, 2011 Author Share Posted December 1, 2011 There are at least three competing hypothesis Romantic № 1. This piece was awarded to japanese civil official and after his death it was converted by his wife into nice and useful trinket. Romantic № 2. This piece came to Japan as war loot (most probably from 1904-1905 Russo-Japanese War) and was presented to the wife of our hero and converted (before or after the presentation) into nice and useful trinket. Romantic № 3. This piece came to Japan by that, or the other way after 1917 October Revolution (with a huge wave of immigrants or by the hands of Siberia expedition participant) and was sold in antic shop (it might be converted before or after this sell). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted December 1, 2011 Author Share Posted December 1, 2011 (edited) № 1 is too weak for my taste. I made some inquiries and was told that there was a thin probability of awarding of Japanese official with standard version of the order - not with special version for non-Christians. For curious ones here comes the central tablet of this order for latter version. Edited December 1, 2011 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted December 1, 2011 Author Share Posted December 1, 2011 By the way this is the how 4th class for non-Christians will look like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted December 1, 2011 Author Share Posted December 1, 2011 And this is the standart version of 4th class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted December 1, 2011 Author Share Posted December 1, 2011 (edited) That’s why hypothesis № 2 and № 3 sound more realistic to me. I think № 3 is the most probable one. Edited December 1, 2011 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted December 1, 2011 Author Share Posted December 1, 2011 (edited) Very interesting that this 3rd class converted St. Anne story gives us clear idea of how similar were reasons behind the conversions of orders in different countries. In case of japanese orders converted by americans after WW II we’ve got a clear cut case of hypothesis № 2. That`s all for today. Cheerio, Nick Edited December 1, 2011 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter monahan Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 It seems likely to me that someone, who either didn't know or didn't care what they were, decided they would make lovely jewellery! I assume that the cnahges must have been done by a non-Japanese, but maybe that's stereotyping we 'gaijin'. I don't know anything about Japanese orders either, but if its possible to date these examples [?], I wouldn't be surprised to find that they came out of Japan immediately post war, when many treasures were being sold off cheap so that the owners could eat! Shame, though. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted December 1, 2011 Author Share Posted December 1, 2011 It seems likely to me that someone, who either didn't know or didn't care what they were, decided they would make lovely jewellery! I assume that the cnahges must have been done by a non-Japanese, but maybe that's stereotyping we 'gaijin'. Peter Dear Peter, did you actually read this thread from the very beginning? Who did it? These pieces were victimized after the WW II. Who were the vandals? I vote for jewelry business. Primary US and probably Japanese small private jewelry workshops. I am afraid they (whoever "they" might be) actually knew what they are doing. The work is too professional and quite unified (especially in case of rising suns). And yes, We can dated (more or less accurate) all of them. They come from different epochs (1900-1945) - most of them from 30s. So this is another argument for war-loot-remade-after-the-war hypothesis. But we should remember, that after the WWII prestige of orders in Japanese society was at all time low. They say you could buy first class rising sun order only for 20 kilos of rice and bordellos used orders as awards for the best performing whores... Also after war living standards were quite low, so it's quite natural to expect creation of some kind low cost substitute for jewelry... Regards, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pieter1012 Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Indeed living was difficult in Japan just after the war, especially for the military, who didn't get their salaries or pensions anymore. A sad story to prove this is that even the family of the famous admiral Heihachiro Togo had to sell off his orders and medals to survive and keep their modest home in Tokyo. Mr. Nakabori, a (rice) merchant bought them at that time, the whole lot including the award certificates. You see them regularly in his publications on Japanese orders and medals. I think after his death the famlily donated or sold the collection of Togo to the Mikasa in Yokosuka, but I'm not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted December 1, 2011 Author Share Posted December 1, 2011 (edited) Mr. Nakabori, a (rice) merchant bought them at that time, the whole lot including the award certificates. You see them regularly in his publications on Japanese orders and medals. I think after his death the famlily donated or sold the collection of Togo to the Mikasa in Yokosuka, but I'm not sure. Nice touch... Never knew he was rice merchant... Edited December 1, 2011 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted December 1, 2011 Author Share Posted December 1, 2011 (edited) Ok. An important correction from my friend, who knows much more about Japan than I ever will "Your explanation of the purpose of the converted order is however a little foggy, though I doubt whether many readers of the forum will notice. An obijime is the accessory itself, often made of coral, ivory or a combination of pearls in a silver setting, fixed upon the rope. It functions like a brooch for ladies in Europe and has merely a decorative function. The ropes you show are obihimo's ropes to keep the obi in place during wear and not obijime's, and finally the obi you show is for a yukata. The obi this obijime is intended for is the wide, thick piece of cloth, often very decorative, that is wound round the waist of a women when she wears the formal kimono." I would like to thank him for this interesting and important correction! Cheers, Nick Edited December 1, 2011 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted December 5, 2011 Author Share Posted December 5, 2011 Ok. Time to go back to our japanese converted pieces. Thanks to generous photo-support from my friends, we have another opportunity to look at some very interesting conversion variations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now