Uncategorised Interesting 9 place medal bar

[blackmoore]

Hello everybody,

I'm new here, I'm a collector from Poland. I'm really impressed by your knowledge - respect!

I wonder if there is a possibility to find out who was the owner of this beautiful piece?

I hope this bar is original, isn't it? The material on the back is grey, as you can see on the last picture.

I woul be very grateful for all replies.

Regards,

Christopher

[blackmoore]

Sorry, I missed one picture:

[M Hunter]

Welcome to the forum Christopher.

I believe this to be an original medal bar mounted for evening or formal wear. The medal bar is for a non combatant and belonging to someone of Officer status. A beautiful medal bar!

Do you have a photo of the reverse?

Best wishes

Matt

[blackmoore]

Thank you

Here are some photos of the reverse:

[Komtur]

A fine and original bar of a Landwehr officer and probably civil official (Beamter). Unfortunately with some small chips on the KO4 and REO4.

Thanks for showing!

Regards, Komtur.

[VtwinVince]

One of the nicest Frackspanges I've seen lately, congratulations on an outstanding item.

[saschaw]

Lovely bar!

I assume the combination is unique, but I'm not sure. He should appear in Reserve or Landwehr officers chapter of the Prussian army rank list. I'd try to fnd him in 1914 volume, which is the most likely. If he isn't listed there, try an older one. He might have retired before 1914.

RAO4, KO4, LD1, probably at least one of his Rote-Kreuz-Medaillen and the OV3a would be mentioned in the rank list. Other awards are later.

[Paul C]

I would think some type of official. He may not/probable is not listed in the 1914 Prussian Rangliste. He is most likely listed in the 1917 Prussian State and Court Handbuch or the 1918 German Reich Handbuch.

[saschaw]

He might be there, (too), but Paul, did you see the XX cross on 6th position?

If he should not be in rank list 1914, he's in an older one.

[Paul C]

He might be there, (too), but Paul, did you see the XX cross on 6th position?

If he should not be in rank list 1914, he's in an older one.

Yes, I agree that he would, at one point, be in the ranklists. However at the point that he is in the ranklist he may not have all his awards which are on the bar. I think he did his 20 years in the army and then went into civil service.

[Ulsterman]

I think he's some sort of Medico-Rat........I reckon the keys are the Oldenburg medals and the Red Cross 2nd class. the 2nd class wasn't given out often and required some sort of Red Cross service, not just a donation.

[blackmoore]

Thank you all for your replies, it's very interesting discussion. I'm glad that it's an original spange.

Unfortunately I don't have an access to the ranklists and other documents you mentioned above...

Maybe someone could help me and check these documents? I would be very thankful

Regards,

Chris

[blackmoore]

Hello again!

It's the next part of the story - I got this mini bar for my spange, of course it has belonged to the same original owner and now I have a full set

As you can see, here are only 7 ribbons, so that I assume this bar is a bit older than the spange.

I tried to find some information about the owner of these decorations but without any result so far Could you give me any advice where I can find the ranklists? Are they available in the internet?

And one more question - what about the dating of my spange, or the single medals crosses and orders?

Regards,

Chris

[M Hunter]

Hello again!

It's the next part of the story - I got this mini bar for my spange, of course it has belonged to the same original owner and now I have a full set

Regards,

Chris

Dear Chris,

This is great that you have united both items together.

I think the ribbon bar is possibly Godet made, judging by the hardware.

Best wishes

Matt

[M Hunter]

I find it interesting that the Red Eagle Order ribbon is missing from this ribbon bar. This Order would have been awarded pre-War so before the Iron Cross. I would expect to see it on the ribbon bar.

Could the Red Eagle Order ribbon have been removed or even covered up by the perhaps more desirable Iron Cross ribbon by the original owner? Looking closely at the Iron Cross ribbon it would appear to be mounted on top of another ribbon. I am just thinking outside the box here.

Best wishes

Matt

[webr55]

I find it interesting that the Red Eagle Order ribbon is missing from this ribbon bar. This Order would have been awarded pre-War so before the Iron Cross. I would expect to see it on the ribbon bar.

Could the Red Eagle Order ribbon have been removed or even covered up by the perhaps more desirable Iron Cross ribbon by the original owner? Looking closely at the Iron Cross ribbon it would appear to be mounted on top of another ribbon. I am just thinking outside the box here.

Best wishes

Matt

I think Matt is right here. The ribbon bar predates the full Frackspange, as the Kriegshilfe/ War Aid Cross from 1918 is also missing. This type of ribbon bar started to be used in 1915, so it can be dated between 1915 and 1918. The owner was probably a cheapo who wanted to reuse his old ribbon bar and just put the EK ribbon on top. Godet would have done a better job on that first ribbon; it is indeed sticking out a bit.

Very interesting, you rarely see this.

Regards

Chris

[Dave Danner]

Red Eagles on the statute ribbon were still awarded during the war to civilians and government officials. My study of awards to members of the Prussian Mining Administration shows 19 RAO4s during the war years, for example (also two RAO4s with the "50" device, but those two would have been in their 70s).

[webr55]

It is possible, yes. On second thought, why would a cheapo have an expensive Frackspange.

Good point, Dave.

[Paul R]

One of the most beautiful WW1 Noncombattant Bar I have ever seen. I am in complete lust. Thank you for sharing it. I hope that you are able to get a name.

[Ulsterman]

Whooooa Nelly! Your study of awards to the Prussian Mining administration? :0

Any conclusions? How many white banded EKs? WMKs?

Any chance of an article?

[Dave Danner]

Whooooa Nelly! Your study of awards to the Prussian Mining administration? :0

Any conclusions? How many white banded EKs? WMKs?

Any chance of an article?

4,126 total awards, of which 3786 were Prussian, and the rest from other German states and German allies. The main non-Prussian awards were from Bavaria and Austria-Hungary, which you would expect given their size, and Brunswick, which would be surprising until you realize that much of that duchy was located in the mining regions of the Harz Mountains.

For the EK2w, just 64, but 1276 regular EK2s and 271 EK1s. The Prussian Merit Cross for War Aid (Verdienstkreuz für Kriegshilfe) is the most common, with 1646 awards. Other Prussian war decorations include two RAO4s on the black/white ribbon and 13 HOH3Xs.

I'm not sure what you mean by WMK.

I don't just have numbers. I have all the names, ranks (and units where available), and positions within the civil service. I would like to publish it in some format, but I don't know how much demand there is.

[Ulsterman]

Oh there is demand- esp. in the brave new world of eBooks and kindle publishing. I would LOVE to see this information -JOMSA article or BDOS article perhaps?

Does RR kow about this yet?

Also, WMK= my bad phrasing for War Aid Cross (VfKh) of Prussia.

Bravo!

[blackmoore]

Hello after a short break!

I'm very glad that here is still interesting discussion on the spange.

> M Hunter - I checked the mini badge and under the Iron Cross ribbon there's nothing, just the metal back plate. Maybe the Red Eagle Order ribbon has been removed, as you wrote, or this order was awarded during the war...

Unfortunately I'm not able to find the name of the spange owner so far

Best regards,

Chris

[Rommel1933]

wow! What a beautiful medal bar!